Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?

[hpantazo]

What changed?  Lots of things:

1. Kyrie's game hasn't really improved in terms of defense, passing, moving without the ball, etc.;

2. Kyrie has shown himself to care more about his "brand" than winning;

3. Kyrie allegedly refused to talk with teammates in the playoffs, which goes beyond his beef with management;

4. We traded a guy who was better last year, a good starter, a prospect, and a lottery pick for him.

In general, I don't like guys who force trades. The reason I'm down on the trade is because I think it will make us worse.

Fair enough. Here are my thoughts on those points though:

1. Kyrie's game hasn't really improved in terms of defense, passing, moving without the ball, etc.;

-Kyrie reportedly agrees, and thats why he wants to play for Stevens, to improve his game and reach his potential.

2. Kyrie has shown himself to care more about his "brand" than winning;

-That is a matter of interpretation. What one person may call 'brand' another may call 'improving your game and reaching your potential. He already won a ring, most young players want to maximize their potential while they can.

3. Kyrie allegedly refused to talk with teammates in the playoffs, which goes beyond his beef with management;

-key word 'allegedly'

4. We traded a guy who was better last year, a good starter, a prospect, and a lottery pick for him.

-We traded a hobbled, 5'9 overachieving class act who likely will never reach that level of performance again and was due a max contract, plus a questionable prospect who looked awful in summer league, and a lottery pick for a premiere scorer in his prime. Time will tell if it made us better or not.

[tstorey_97]

I will put my money on this.

Irving knew Lebron was leaving, thus, he decided to shoot his way out of town. Cav's fans can't be happy with him or his team mate Lebron James.

The Celtics had their own big three leave one way or the other...as soon as KLove departs, Cavs fans can be mad while their waiting to get back to the playoffs.

[LilRip]

TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".

Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.

you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?

A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.

You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.

Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?

On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.

Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?

[Roy H.]

TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".

Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.

you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?

A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.

You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.

Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?

On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.

Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?

People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.

Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...

[wayupnorth]

TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".

Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.

you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?

A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.

You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.

Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?

On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.

Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?

People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.

Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...

It really is wild to see one of the most prominent, logical, and well respected posters, take on such an extremely negative tone.

[Roy H.]

TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".

Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.

you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?

A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.

You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.

Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?

On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.

Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?

People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.

Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...

It really is wild to see one of the most prominent, logical, and well respected posters, take on such an extremely negative tone.

Logic and negative aren't opposites, though.

No more personal remarks, please. Keep on topic.

[LilRip]

TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".

Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.

you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?

A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.

You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.

Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?

On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.

Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?

People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.

Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...

So what Ray Allen did was way better than Kyrie? What Lebron did with his Decision or Dwight with his whole "will he, won't he" drama in Orlando was so much better than what Kyrie did? As far as I can tell, Kyrie letting management know his preferences was him being upfront and honest with his employers. I'm 100% sure the Cavs preferred this route because it allowed them to plan for the future, rather than if Kyrie played it coy and just left them for nothing in FA.

It was the leak that made the situation far worse than it probably was. Can you not acknowledge this?

Also, forcing his way out of town? As far as I can tell, Kyrie's trade request was a private conversation with management.

Abandoning his teammates? Work on his brand? You're reaching Roy. And I find Kyrie's approach of "I want to prove myself and I'll beat the best to do it" way more refreshing than KD or Lebron's approach of "I want the easiest path to a ring".

[LilRip]

There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?

In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?

[Roy H.]

There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?

In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?

Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.

But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.

[BudweiserCeltic]

There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?

In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?

Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.

But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.

You keep harping about "leaving" and "honoring contracts", but that's THE LEAST of what made Ray Allen a traitor to the Celtics fanbase and teammates.

That he went specifically to MIAMI to play with WADE and LEBRON our current closest rivals is what made Ray Allen a real Judas. That he took less money in free-agency than we offered, etc., etc. only exacerbates the issue, but it's not THE REASON why Ray Allen is a traitor.

What made him a traitor was the simple fact that he left FOR MIAMI, not that he left at all.

Let me put it this way, at least on my personal view, if after Danny Ainge was in advanced talks to trade Ray Allen to the point that an agreement was made and it fell through, and Ray Allen later asks to be traded I wouldn't hold it against him at all. That he left the Celtics in free-agency because he didn't want to be here anymore I have no problem with that at all. The ISSUE is where he left to, and glossing over it misses the argument entirely as it regards Ray Allen and what he did... and nothing he's said and done since then has helped, just the opposite. It's cemented my view on what did.

That said, I don't get why people are defending Kyrie around here. He's a traitor to the Cavs through and through. Sorry people, but you have to call it as it is.

That we benefited from that betrayal? Cool, all's good for US, but doesn't wash away what he did to the Cavs.

Now, I don't know the circumstances with him and his teammates and him with management. Did their relationship sour enough to the point that it'll make it difficult to continue playing together? Is requesting a trade the same as forcing a trade? But whatever.

I'll also say this. "Requesting a trade" does not equal "not honoring a contract". Did Kyrie threaten to not play with the Cavs if he wasn't traded? Did he force a buyout? I mean, all the power is in management's and ownership's hands, that's how NBA contracts work. Kyrie requested something that is within management's power to deny or grant. One can view the request as a form of a traitor's action, but that has NOTHING to do with honoring a contract or not. Sorry, you're off on that part.

[Dino Pitino]

That said, I don't get why people are defending Kyrie around here. He's a traitor to the Cavs through and through. Sorry people, but you have to call it as it is.

That we benefited from that betrayal? Cool, all's good for US, but doesn't wash away what he did to the Cavs.

Can't deny he betrayed the Cavs. But he was just jumping ship a year earlier than LeBron will jump ship (for the second time), he asked off of the ship. He didn't choose the Celtics. The Celtics aren't even that much of a rival, given how the Cavs smoke us in the playoffs.

[LilRip]

There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?

In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?

Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.

But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.

You keep harping about "leaving" and "honoring contracts", but that's THE LEAST of what made Ray Allen a traitor to the Celtics fanbase and teammates.

That he went specifically to MIAMI to play with WADE and LEBRON our current closest rivals is what made Ray Allen a real Judas. That he took less money in free-agency than we offered, etc., etc. only exacerbates the issue, but it's not THE REASON why Ray Allen is a traitor.

What made him a traitor was the simple fact that he left FOR MIAMI, not that he left at all.

Let me put it this way, at least on my personal view, if after Danny Ainge was in advanced talks to trade Ray Allen to the point that an agreement was made and it fell through, and Ray Allen later asks to be traded I wouldn't hold it against him at all. That he left the Celtics in free-agency because he didn't want to be here anymore I have no problem with that at all. The ISSUE is where he left to, and glossing over it misses the argument entirely as it regards Ray Allen and what he did... and nothing he's said and done since then has helped, just the opposite. It's cemented my view on what did.

That said, I don't get why people are defending Kyrie around here. He's a traitor to the Cavs through and through. Sorry people, but you have to call it as it is.

That we benefited from that betrayal? Cool, all's good for US, but doesn't wash away what he did to the Cavs.

Now, I don't know the circumstances with him and his teammates and him with management. Did their relationship sour enough to the point that it'll make it difficult to continue playing together? Is requesting a trade the same as forcing a trade? But whatever.

I'll also say this. "Requesting a trade" does not equal "not honoring a contract". Did Kyrie threaten to not play with the Cavs if he wasn't traded? Did he force a buyout? I mean, all the power is in management's and ownership's hands, that's how NBA contracts work. Kyrie requested something that is within management's power to deny or grant. One can view the request as a form of a traitor's action, but that has NOTHING to do with honoring a contract or not. Sorry, you're off on that part.

The bolded part for me is what actually makes it NOT a betrayal.

The way I see it, Kyrie was on his way out of Cleveland. And he could've done it a number of ways:

One possible way is by refusing to play until he got a buyout to go to the team of his choosing. This (for me) is what qualifies as not honoring a contract.

The second way is to keep his mouth shut and then leave via free agency without giving anyone a heads up and later on revealing that he never wanted to be in Cleveland for quite some time now. This cripples a franchise, especially if Lebron leaves. Plus, honestly, it makes him look more like a villain.

Thirdly, is to request for a trade in a private meeting and fully disclose his future intents and his desires. To bring it down to earth a little more and get away from this crazy Game of Zones, I think it's similar when your boss asks you "so where do you see yourself 5 years from now?" If Kyrie worked in the finance department and said "Yknow, I'd really like to try marketing. I want to be a brand manager in the future", I don't see it as a "betrayal". He was upfront about his desires.

Leaving a team isn't a betrayal. Wanting to play elsewhere isn't a betrayal. IMO, how you do it and the circumstances surrounding it dictates whether it was a betrayal or not. I view what KD or Ray Allen did as betrayals. Kyrie's is a completely different case IMO.

[LilRip]

There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?

In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?

Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.

But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.

And yet wasn't it Indy who pulled out of the trade? I'll find the link when I have the time but the timing of the negotiations suggest that Kyrie made his trade request earlier. Like, weeks before it leaked to the media. Which is why Cleveland was including him in trade packages.

And for all this talk about refusing to talk to team and teammates, what about Porzingis? Is he a traitor? Dude skipped his exit interview! He refused to talk to the team. He later apologized for that (many weeks later) but if he got traded somehow during that period (there were a bunch of rumors), should he be considered a traitor to the Knicks franchise?