Author Topic: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?  (Read 2046 times)

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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2017, 09:00:42 AM »

Offline Moranis

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.   
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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2017, 09:31:04 AM »

Online Roy H.

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2017, 11:39:48 AM »

Offline Moranis

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.

So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
none at all (at least from me).  I totally get why those former teammates may make a stink. 
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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Yeah, I don't care about Ray Allen at all either. I liked that he helped us win a championship. I'm over him leaving, as I'm over Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Ellsbury, Wes Welker, etc. etc. etc.

People that focus on Ray leaving almost 10 years ago need to move on.

These guys are professional athletes, not fans of Boston sports teams. They are going to make the best decision for their families.

CLE fans should understand that Kyrie wanted to be the alpha male. That wasn't going to happen in CLE. Would you take Kyrie over Lebron? I wouldn't.

Personally, I've left a couple of companies, and haven't communicated much with previous coworkers. Not b/c of hatred, but b/c I moved on and didn't need to dwell on the past.

There should be no feelings hurt. It was a business decision. The smart fans will focus on the basketball and not the soap opera BS.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2017, 12:04:45 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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The difference is Kyrie was traded and for a good haul. Ray left as a free agent for less money to a rival. They could have traded Kyrie to the Knicks but they traded him to a rival that wasn't even on his list of 4 teams.
another difference is that Kyrie was drafted by the Cavs and did his best to bring a winner to that city without asking for a trade.  He only looked to move on after winning a title and having enough of Lebron running the show. 

Ray played for 2 other franchises prior to being acquired by the C's --> much less expectation of attachment to Boston should be expected by the fanbase.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2017, 02:43:30 PM »

Offline biggs

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No. I respect what he did. He was the clutch player of that group and at times he put the team on his back, yet LeBron gets all the love. I'm pumped about the trade after hearing that Kyrie is excited about being here.  Sad to see IT go, but we improved long-term with this deal.
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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2017, 06:30:25 PM »

Online IDreamCeltics

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Yeah, I don't care about Ray Allen at all either. I liked that he helped us win a championship. I'm over him leaving, as I'm over Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Ellsbury, Wes Welker, etc. etc. etc.

People that focus on Ray leaving almost 10 years ago need to move on.

These guys are professional athletes, not fans of Boston sports teams. They are going to make the best decision for their families.

CLE fans should understand that Kyrie wanted to be the alpha male. That wasn't going to happen in CLE. Would you take Kyrie over Lebron? I wouldn't.

Personally, I've left a couple of companies, and haven't communicated much with previous coworkers. Not b/c of hatred, but b/c I moved on and didn't need to dwell on the past.

There should be no feelings hurt. It was a business decision. The smart fans will focus on the basketball and not the soap opera BS.

Right, people should cut Kyrie some slack.  He did what any true alpha would do in his situation.  He attacked his teammate through social media rather than talking to him like a man, and then threatened to hold-out on his team forcing them to trade him so he didn't have to deal with the fall-out. 

This kid is REALLY developing as a leader. 


Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2017, 07:07:31 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow?  Like, has this become a respected tactic?


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2017, 07:29:23 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow?  Like, has this become a respected tactic?

You seem to be missing the big difference.

Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.

You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.

That is not true.


Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2017, 07:43:34 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow?  Like, has this become a respected tactic?

You seem to be missing the big difference.

Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.

You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.

That is not true.

Well, if it's a character flaw if he leaves us, then it's a character flaw if he comes to us. 

Unless you're saying that many fans are giant hypocrites, and their anger / love for players has no legitimate basis. Under those circumstances, maybe you're right. It also puts NBA fanhood on roughly the same level as the WWE, where fans root for stars based exclusively on who Vince McMahon wants them to root for.


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2017, 07:51:17 PM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow?  Like, has this become a respected tactic?

You seem to be missing the big difference.

Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.

You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.

That is not true.

Well, if it's a character flaw if he leaves us, then it's a character flaw if he comes to us. 

Unless you're saying that many fans are giant hypocrites, and their anger / love for players has no legitimate basis. Under those circumstances, maybe you're right. It also puts NBA fanhood on roughly the same level as the WWE, where fans root for stars based exclusively on who Vince McMahon wants them to root for.

Alright.

I hope you warmed up a lot before that gigantic stretch.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2017, 08:02:12 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow?  Like, has this become a respected tactic?

You seem to be missing the big difference.

Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.

You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.

That is not true.

Well, if it's a character flaw if he leaves us, then it's a character flaw if he comes to us. 

Unless you're saying that many fans are giant hypocrites, and their anger / love for players has no legitimate basis. Under those circumstances, maybe you're right. It also puts NBA fanhood on roughly the same level as the WWE, where fans root for stars based exclusively on who Vince McMahon wants them to root for.

Alright.

I hope you warmed up a lot before that gigantic stretch.

It's not a hypocritical and/or unprincipled reaction?


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2017, 08:22:40 PM »

Offline Mike Pemulis

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Should Cs fans then regard him as Paul the apostle? Anyway - any all star that says, "F playing with Lebron, I don't wanna be this guys teammate" is good with me.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2017, 08:25:33 PM »

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Roy, you seem pretty upset by this Kyrie-IT trade, which surprised me. I thought you were a big fan of Kyrie a couple of years ago, and would have expected you to be excited that the Celtics acquired him. What changed? Is it Kyrie's decision to ask out and away from Lebron that bothers you, or Ainge's decision to trade IT?

It's a bit of a stretch to compare Kyrie asking for a trade away from Lebron at the age of 25 to McHale hypothetically asking for a trade away from Bird. This is a totally different era, it is extremely rare for any player to stay on one team their whole career. The league is designed to generate player movement. Also, Kyrie was the #1 pick and the main guy on his team before Lebron decided to return to Cleveland. There is no other player in NBA history that comes close to any comparable level of influence that Lebron has on the organization from the front office all the way down. None. That has to be quite oppressive to a young guy looking to make his legacy in the league.

Also, the Cavs tried to trade Kyrie without asking him, and reports of Lebron leaving have been rampant before Kyrie asked out. It comes back to this being a totally different era. If you want to try to make a comparison, then we have to pretend Bird was running the whole organization, giving jobs to his friends, and then had already decided to bolt to join the Pacers and the Celtics had already tried to trade McHale several times without talking to him about it before McHale finally decided to ask out.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 08:32:33 PM by hpantazo »

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2017, 09:01:46 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Roy, you seem pretty upset by this Kyrie-IT trade, which surprised me. I thought you were a big fan of Kyrie a couple of years ago, and would have expected you to be excited that the Celtics acquired him. What changed? Is it Kyrie's decision to ask out and away from Lebron that bothers you, or Ainge's decision to trade IT?

It's a bit of a stretch to compare Kyrie asking for a trade away from Lebron at the age of 25 to McHale hypothetically asking for a trade away from Bird. This is a totally different era, it is extremely rare for any player to stay on one team their whole career. The league is designed to generate player movement. Also, Kyrie was the #1 pick and the main guy on his team before Lebron decided to return to Cleveland. There is no other player in NBA history that comes close to any comparable level of influence that Lebron has on the organization from the front office all the way down. None. That has to be quite oppressive to a young guy looking to make his legacy in the league.

Also, the Cavs tried to trade Kyrie without asking him, and reports of Lebron leaving have been rampant before Kyrie asked out. It comes back to this being a totally different era. If you want to try to make a comparison, then we have to pretend Bird was running the whole organization, giving jobs to his friends, and then had already decided to bolt to join the Pacers and the Celtics had already tried to trade McHale several times without talking to him about it before McHale finally decided to ask out.

What changed?  Lots of things:

1. Kyrie's game hasn't really improved in terms of defense, passing, moving without the ball, etc.;

2. Kyrie has shown himself to care more about his "brand" than winning;

3. Kyrie allegedly refused to talk with teammates in the playoffs, which goes beyond his beef with management;

4. We traded a guy who was better last year, a good starter, a prospect, and a lottery pick for him.

In general, I don't like guys who force trades. The reason I'm down on the trade is because I think it will make us worse.


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