Author Topic: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?  (Read 2967 times)

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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2017, 05:40:29 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum?  I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk.  It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs.  For me it is time to get excited about the season.  I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site.  Just my 2 cents.

It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.

Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.

I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2017, 05:58:33 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum?  I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk.  It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs.  For me it is time to get excited about the season.  I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site.  Just my 2 cents.

It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.

Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.

I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.

Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.

It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2017, 06:08:05 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum?  I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk.  It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs.  For me it is time to get excited about the season.  I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site.  Just my 2 cents.

It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.

Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.

I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.

Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.

It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.

I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context

Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing


Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2017, 06:11:58 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Ray Allen had the choice between a bigger contract with his current team or a smaller contract with our biggest rival.  A major factor was that he found out he was being shopped, although the Celitcs offered him a No Trade Clause in the new contract that they offered him.  The Celtics ended up with nothing and Ray Allen hit the game winning shot essentially to win the Heat a Championship.

Kyrie found out that the #1 player on his team was floating rumors that he (LeBron) is leaving in the off season.  Kyrie also found out that he (Kyrie) was being shopped, so then Kyrie asked for a trade in private, but then LeBron's camp likely leaked his private request to the media. (http://www.newsweek.com/sport-lebron-james-nba-640862).  Then Kyrie found out that the Celtics were an option and the Celtics gave a fair return in exchange for Kyrie.

I still think Ray is worse, but in both cases the player was being shopped before they left the team.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2017, 06:13:05 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum?  I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk.  It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs.  For me it is time to get excited about the season.  I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site.  Just my 2 cents.

It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.

Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.

I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.

Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.

It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.

I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context

Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing


Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...

No, I tend to hold a similar view of anybody who forces a trade. That's probably amplified when a guy refuses to talk to his teammates about his decision.

If Hayward or Smart or Tatum ever force a trade off a 3-time finalist and refuse to honor their contract, we can revisit this. What Kyrie did to his teammates and city is pretty much the ultimate betrayal.


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2017, 06:33:10 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum?  I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk.  It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs.  For me it is time to get excited about the season.  I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site.  Just my 2 cents.

It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.

Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.

I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.

Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.

It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.

I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context

Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing


Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...

No, I tend to hold a similar view of anybody who forces a trade. That's probably amplified when a guy refuses to talk to his teammates about his decision.

If Hayward or Smart or Tatum ever force a trade off a 3-time finalist and refuse to honor their contract, we can revisit this. What Kyrie did to his teammates and city is pretty much the ultimate betrayal.

I really hope you come to love Irving. This seems like the most upset I have seen you about something in my decade plus on Celtics forums..

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2017, 06:56:03 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum?  I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk.  It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs.  For me it is time to get excited about the season.  I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site.  Just my 2 cents.

It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.

Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.

I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.

Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.

It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.

I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context

Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing


Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...

No, I tend to hold a similar view of anybody who forces a trade. That's probably amplified when a guy refuses to talk to his teammates about his decision.

If Hayward or Smart or Tatum ever force a trade off a 3-time finalist and refuse to honor their contract, we can revisit this. What Kyrie did to his teammates and city is pretty much the ultimate betrayal.

I really hope you come to love Irving. This seems like the most upset I have seen you about something in my decade plus on Celtics forums..

I'm pretty much over it. That doesn't mean I can't root for Kyrie and properly note that he betrayed his teammates and fans. Like the guy who marries the woman who cheated on her prior husband, I'll keep my fingers crossed that he's gotten the disloyalty and selfishness out of his system.


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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2017, 09:37:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?

I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:

* Both helped their team to a title;

* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;

* Both took less money than they could have;

* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.

So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there?  And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?

I'm not sure why you have such a personal vendetta against Kyrie, but you really seem to be going out of your way to do everything you can to try and smear his image and turn Celtics fans against him.

The Kyrie situation is not the same as the Ray Allen situation.

Ray Situation
Pierce, KG and Ray all formed together willingly in Boston.  Even though KG and Ray arrived via trade, those trades essentially happened because they told their former teams that they were happy to be there - they wanted to go to Boston, they wanted to form a Big 3 together, they wanted to compete for titles together. 

And they did.  They won a title their first year together, and followed that up with multiple years of deep playoff runs.

Then they forged a bitter rivalry with the Heat - these teams practically had pure hatred for each other - and after an extremely painful and hard fought loss at the hand of the Heat, rather than saying "lets come back harder next year and beat them this time", Ray left and joined them.  It's not that he joined the rival Heat, it's that he joined the rival Heat AFTER the Celtics just lost to them in heartbreaking fashion.  It's like Ray just gave up and said "If you can't beat them, join them" and skipped town. 

Then to make matters worse, Ray made major compromises to join the Heat.  Not only did he take a LOT less money (less money than the Celtics had already offered him, along with apparently a no trade clause), he also took a lesser role.  He would have been at least a 6th man in Boston, and would have played starters minutes due to their lack of depth. So he sacrificed money, a no trade clause and minutes to go to Miami.  That was basically a massive "screw you" to Boston. 

Then on top of all this, once he eventually DID go to Miami, he went on to make it a point to publically badmouth the Celtics organisation at every opportunity.


Kyrie Situation
To start with, Kyrie never chose to play with Lebron or with Kevin Love. He never agreed to join up with those guys in Cleveland.  He was drafted to Cleveland, and the Cavs offered him an extension with all the promise that they would build around him as the centre and franchise player of the team.  Then right after he accepted that extension, they signed Lebron James and traded for Kevin Love, and suddenly Kyrie was stuck as the #2 man living constantly in Lebron's shadow.  Kyrie was the face of the Cavs when he signed his extension - Lebron was the face of the Cavs the instant he showed up. So Kyrie was basically lied to, and then forced into a situation that he never really wanted to be in - and credit to him for ultimately keeping his mouth shut for 3 seasons and trying to make the best of it.  Unlike Ray who was traded to a situation he WANTED to go to.   

Secondly, Kyrie has two years left on his deal, and he's stuck in the middle of a Cavs team that ultimately has clear no future direction.  They just lost their GM who helped put this whole winning franchise together.  On top of that Lebron is on the last year of his deal, and there's a great deal of speculation that he will leave next year.  If he does then the Cavs would still be way over the cap, so it would be years before they would be able to clear enough cap space or acquire enough assets to actually make the team relevant again - Kyrie could waste the next 3-5 seasons on a crappy lottery bound Cleveland team with lost management that doesn't know what they are doing.  Comparatively, Ray Allen knew exactly where he was with Boston.  They were in win-now mode and they wanted a championship, nothing less.  There was no such uncertainty. Boston's front office wasn't going anywhere, and Doc would have stuck around longer for sure if Ray had stayed - he would have had certain continuity.     

Thirdly. Kyrie didn't take less money to come to Boston, really.  He sacrificed a trade kicker.  That trade kicker was money that he never would have made if he stayed in Cleveland.  It's extra money he COULD have made on top if he came to Boston, but he waived it to make the deal happen.  He's not losing any money there.  As far as I know Boston will retain his contractual rights just as Clevleand would have, so he shouldn't be giving up any money when it comes time to resign either.  So not the same as Ray, who took LESS money and sacrificed a no trade clause to skip town to the rival.

Next, Kyrie left to go to Boston in the aim of a bigger role on the team.  In Cleveland he was Robin, Lebron was Batman.  Kyrie is tired of being Robin, he feels he's good enough to be Batman, so why should he be somebody's Robin?  He knows as long as he's in Cleveland he can NEVER be Batman, and the only way for that to happen is for him to leave town.  So he did exactly that, requested to be transferred to a city where he can be Batman.   Ray Allen on the other hand was Robin in Boston - fighting by Batman's side every day.  He gave  up the role of Robin so that he could be demoted to the role of Alfred, Batman's butler, in Miami - so he could make a living bringing Batman ice tea and shining his shoes.   

Finally, Kyrie did not leave to join the guys who just beat him.  Nobody can accuse him of being cowardly by taking on a "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality.  Nobody can accuse him of saying "I want to take the easy way to a title, I'm going to leave my team and go join the favourites". No.  If anything he's doing the opposite - he's leaving the easy path and taking the more challenging path.    He's recognising that he's not gong to develop as a player if he keeps playing second fiddle to the very best - the only way for him to push the envelope and become better as a player is for him to go AGAINST the best,  You have to go against the best and beat the best in order to become the best - he's welcoming that challenge.  He knows Lebron is the best player in the NBA - he knows that in order to become the player he wants to be, he needs to beat Lebron.  That way he can well and truly prove that he IS Batman, not just Robin hiding inside a Batman suit.   

Finally, I have not heard Kyrie say a single bad thing about Cleveland or any of his former teammates since the trade.  He's expressed nothing but love for the City, for the team, for his former teammates.  He's been poked and prodded constantly by reporters trying to get juicy gossip out of him, and he's blatantly denied and absolutely refused to give in and say a single bad thing.  He's handled that side of things with the utmost of class, and even if he DOES had negative feelings towards Lebron or Cleveland, he's keeping it to himself.

So in actual fact, what Kyrie is doing he is not even remotely close to what Ray did.  It's actually pretty much the complete opposite of what Ray did.

Look man, I have no problem with you NOT liking the trade.  I have no problem with you NOT liking Kyrie and NOT wanting him to be a Celtic.  I have no problem with you NOT wanting Isaiah to be in Cleveland.  I totally respect those feelings that you have, and I understand them completely.

I have my own reservations about this trade.  I don't necessarily love all facets of the deal.  I don't necessarily love where the Celtics are as a team right now - I feel the roster is full of holes and filled with uncertainty, and that the team is investing way too much hope in the highly optimistic hope that one or two of our prospects are going to leap out of nowhere, put on a cape, and be the saviours for this team.  I also worry that we gave up a lot of our future flexibility to be where we are, and if a trade does come up for somebody like Anthony Davis, we are no longer the team best equipped to pull it off - in fact I feel that we, for the first time in years, have relatively little to offer.  I'm also not 100% convinced this team will be capable of playing anything resembling passable defence, I'm concerned about our total lack of rebounding, and I'm legitimately concerned that Kyrie may never become the Batman that he believes he is - I think he it's certainly possible, but hardly a given. 

So I do completely understand your reservations.  However what I think is not cool is that I feel like you are just making one attempt after the other to try to twist reality in your favour in order to smear Kyrie - and I don't think that's fair.  The guy is a legitimate star, he's in Boston, he WANTS to be in Boston, and he wants to be the best Celtic he can be for us - the fans.  Why don't we at least give him that chance? 

I still recall how many people hated the Pierce/KG trade.  I remember how may people hated the Isaiah Thomas trade - so many CBloggers were complaining that Thomas isn't good enough to carry a team, that he's too short, that he's too much of a defensive liability, that he's a ball hog, a chucker and a black hole.  I think anybody would be hard pressed right now to criticise either of those two moves.  So lets give Kyrie a chance to play his way into our hearts, just as Isaiah did. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 10:13:05 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2017, 10:54:38 PM »

Offline lbgreen33

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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?

I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:

* Both helped their team to a title;

* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;

* Both took less money than they could have;

* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.

So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there?  And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?

I'm not sure why you have such a personal vendetta against Kyrie, but you really seem to be going out of your way to do everything you can to try and smear his image and turn Celtics fans against him.

The Kyrie situation is not the same as the Ray Allen situation.

Ray Situation
Pierce, KG and Ray all formed together willingly in Boston.  Even though KG and Ray arrived via trade, those trades essentially happened because they told their former teams that they were happy to be there - they wanted to go to Boston, they wanted to form a Big 3 together, they wanted to compete for titles together. 

And they did.  They won a title their first year together, and followed that up with multiple years of deep playoff runs.

Then they forged a bitter rivalry with the Heat - these teams practically had pure hatred for each other - and after an extremely painful and hard fought loss at the hand of the Heat, rather than saying "lets come back harder next year and beat them this time", Ray left and joined them.  It's not that he joined the rival Heat, it's that he joined the rival Heat AFTER the Celtics just lost to them in heartbreaking fashion.  It's like Ray just gave up and said "If you can't beat them, join them" and skipped town. 

Then to make matters worse, Ray made major compromises to join the Heat.  Not only did he take a LOT less money (less money than the Celtics had already offered him, along with apparently a no trade clause), he also took a lesser role.  He would have been at least a 6th man in Boston, and would have played starters minutes due to their lack of depth. So he sacrificed money, a no trade clause and minutes to go to Miami.  That was basically a massive "screw you" to Boston. 

Then on top of all this, once he eventually DID go to Miami, he went on to make it a point to publically badmouth the Celtics organisation at every opportunity.


Kyrie Situation
To start with, Kyrie never chose to play with Lebron or with Kevin Love. He never agreed to join up with those guys in Cleveland.  He was drafted to Cleveland, and the Cavs offered him an extension with all the promise that they would build around him as the centre and franchise player of the team.  Then right after he accepted that extension, they signed Lebron James and traded for Kevin Love, and suddenly Kyrie was stuck as the #2 man living constantly in Lebron's shadow.  Kyrie was the face of the Cavs when he signed his extension - Lebron was the face of the Cavs the instant he showed up. So Kyrie was basically lied to, and then forced into a situation that he never really wanted to be in - and credit to him for ultimately keeping his mouth shut for 3 seasons and trying to make the best of it.  Unlike Ray who was traded to a situation he WANTED to go to.   

Secondly, Kyrie has two years left on his deal, and he's stuck in the middle of a Cavs team that ultimately has clear no future direction.  They just lost their GM who helped put this whole winning franchise together.  On top of that Lebron is on the last year of his deal, and there's a great deal of speculation that he will leave next year.  If he does then the Cavs would still be way over the cap, so it would be years before they would be able to clear enough cap space or acquire enough assets to actually make the team relevant again - Kyrie could waste the next 3-5 seasons on a crappy lottery bound Cleveland team with lost management that doesn't know what they are doing.  Comparatively, Ray Allen knew exactly where he was with Boston.  They were in win-now mode and they wanted a championship, nothing less.  There was no such uncertainty. Boston's front office wasn't going anywhere, and Doc would have stuck around longer for sure if Ray had stayed - he would have had certain continuity.     

Thirdly. Kyrie didn't take less money to come to Boston, really.  He sacrificed a trade kicker.  That trade kicker was money that he never would have made if he stayed in Cleveland.  It's extra money he COULD have made on top if he came to Boston, but he waived it to make the deal happen.  He's not losing any money there.  As far as I know Boston will retain his contractual rights just as Clevleand would have, so he shouldn't be giving up any money when it comes time to resign either.  So not the same as Ray, who took LESS money and sacrificed a no trade clause to skip town to the rival.

Next, Kyrie left to go to Boston in the aim of a bigger role on the team.  In Cleveland he was Robin, Lebron was Batman.  Kyrie is tired of being Robin, he feels he's good enough to be Batman, so why should he be somebody's Robin?  He knows as long as he's in Cleveland he can NEVER be Batman, and the only way for that to happen is for him to leave town.  So he did exactly that, requested to be transferred to a city where he can be Batman.   Ray Allen on the other hand was Robin in Boston - fighting by Batman's side every day.  He gave  up the role of Robin so that he could be demoted to the role of Alfred, Batman's butler, in Miami - so he could make a living bringing Batman ice tea and shining his shoes.   

Finally, Kyrie did not leave to join the guys who just beat him.  Nobody can accuse him of being cowardly by taking on a "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality.  Nobody can accuse him of saying "I want to take the easy way to a title, I'm going to leave my team and go join the favourites". No.  If anything he's doing the opposite - he's leaving the easy path and taking the more challenging path.    He's recognising that he's not gong to develop as a player if he keeps playing second fiddle to the very best - the only way for him to push the envelope and become better as a player is for him to go AGAINST the best,  You have to go against the best and beat the best in order to become the best - he's welcoming that challenge.  He knows Lebron is the best player in the NBA - he knows that in order to become the player he wants to be, he needs to beat Lebron.  That way he can well and truly prove that he IS Batman, not just Robin hiding inside a Batman suit.   

Finally, I have not heard Kyrie say a single bad thing about Cleveland or any of his former teammates since the trade.  He's expressed nothing but love for the City, for the team, for his former teammates.  He's been poked and prodded constantly by reporters trying to get juicy gossip out of him, and he's blatantly denied and absolutely refused to give in and say a single bad thing.  He's handled that side of things with the utmost of class, and even if he DOES had negative feelings towards Lebron or Cleveland, he's keeping it to himself.

So in actual fact, what Kyrie is doing he is not even remotely close to what Ray did.  It's actually pretty much the complete opposite of what Ray did.

Look man, I have no problem with you NOT liking the trade.  I have no problem with you NOT liking Kyrie and NOT wanting him to be a Celtic.  I have no problem with you NOT wanting Isaiah to be in Cleveland.  I totally respect those feelings that you have, and I understand them completely.

I have my own reservations about this trade.  I don't necessarily love all facets of the deal.  I don't necessarily love where the Celtics are as a team right now - I feel the roster is full of holes and filled with uncertainty, and that the team is investing way too much hope in the highly optimistic hope that one or two of our prospects are going to leap out of nowhere, put on a cape, and be the saviours for this team.  I also worry that we gave up a lot of our future flexibility to be where we are, and if a trade does come up for somebody like Anthony Davis, we are no longer the team best equipped to pull it off - in fact I feel that we, for the first time in years, have relatively little to offer.  I'm also not 100% convinced this team will be capable of playing anything resembling passable defence, I'm concerned about our total lack of rebounding, and I'm legitimately concerned that Kyrie may never become the Batman that he believes he is - I think he it's certainly possible, but hardly a given. 

So I do completely understand your reservations.  However what I think is not cool is that I feel like you are just making one attempt after the other to try to twist reality in your favour in order to smear Kyrie - and I don't think that's fair.  The guy is a legitimate star, he's in Boston, he WANTS to be in Boston, and he wants to be the best Celtic he can be for us - the fans.  Why don't we at least give him that chance? 

I still recall how many people hated the Pierce/KG trade.  I remember how may people hated the Isaiah Thomas trade - so many CBloggers were complaining that Thomas isn't good enough to carry a team, that he's too short, that he's too much of a defensive liability, that he's a ball hog, a chucker and a black hole.  I think anybody would be hard pressed right now to criticise either of those two moves.  So lets give Kyrie a chance to play his way into our hearts, just as Isaiah did.

I agree with this.  I have enjoyed reading this blog over the years, I come here as a Celtics fan to get excited about our team and the season. It is fun reading all the different opinions, it is what makes this such a great forum.

But, when I read a post that says: "traitor" / "Judas"?  I think, Really? Judas?
That just seems mean.  I was never upset with Ray when he left, I figure it was his right to do what he felt was best for him. For me that didn't take away from Ray helping us win the championship.

The same can be said for Kyrie, he helped Cleveland win the title. He felt the need for a change, Cleveland could have made him come back if they wanted to, but instead they decided to trade him.  In the end that was Cleveland's decision to trade him to the Celtics not Kyrie Irvings.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2017, 11:44:17 PM »

Offline Diggles

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If Paul Pierce can forgive him I can.   The only reason they were mad was because the way/how he left. 

Many people forget Ray was supposedly traded to Memphis and the deal fell apart.   

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2017, 11:52:22 PM »

Offline LilRip

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
- LilRip

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #56 on: September 12, 2017, 06:03:24 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".


Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #57 on: September 12, 2017, 08:46:26 AM »

Offline The One

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No.

The fans should thank him for the ring, without him, they don't win it.

Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #58 on: September 12, 2017, 08:49:55 AM »

Offline Moranis

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
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Re: Should Cavs fans regard Kyrie as a "traitor" / "Judas"?
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2017, 08:57:55 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.

Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.

The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.

Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.

It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.

Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article.  Yet you keep acting like it is a fact.  It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much. 

And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland.  That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all. 

Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade.  Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic.  It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.

Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?

Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.



Once a CrotoNat, always a CrotoNat.  CelticsBlog Draft Champions, 2009 & 2012;
DKC Draft 2015 Champions and beyond...