Author Topic: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?  (Read 1129 times)

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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 10:08:35 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 10:19:00 AM »

Offline Rondo2287

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Did you really just say the VA doesnt have widespride waiting lines?  I must have misread.

You realize a few year ago Lahey Clinic was turning away veterans at their doors for outsourced medical procedures because the VA wasn't paying their bills?  You cant just say things on the internet and cause them to be true. 

VETERANS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM HOSPITAL DOORS AND YOU THINK THIS IS WORKING WELL?

Jesus christ I can't believe this
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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 10:51:49 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Did you really just say the VA doesnt have widespride waiting lines?  I must have misread.

You realize a few year ago Lahey Clinic was turning away veterans at their doors for outsourced medical procedures because the VA wasn't paying their bills?  You cant just say things on the internet and cause them to be true. 

VETERANS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM HOSPITAL DOORS AND YOU THINK THIS IS WORKING WELL?

Jesus christ I can't believe this
I suppose you can source this claim?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 10:57:16 AM by kozlodoev »
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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 10:53:04 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Did you really just say the VA doesnt have widespride waiting lines?  I must have misread.

You realize a few year ago Lahey Clinic was turning away veterans at their doors for outsourced medical procedures because the VA wasn't paying their bills?  You cant just say things on the internet and cause them to be true. 

VETERANS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM HOSPITAL DOORS AND YOU THINK THIS IS WORKING WELL?

Jesus christ I can't believe this

I think you are over reacting.  My father has been in the VA system for years and gets very good care.  He is able to access care in multiple States as he needs it (big advantage for him over private insurance).    He is currently recovering from eye surgery they provided.  He was diagnosed in FL and got the procedure in NH.  Try that with your private insurance.  The VA has some issues (as all health care systems do) but by and large, it is a working system that provides good care for veterans.  My one data point is just that but he has gotten great care. 

It is expensive though, whether they outsource or not.  If you want to focus on the sensationalized news of one billing snafu, then I think you are really missing the point and just continuing an unproductive narrative.  There are probably hundreds of stories of the VA screwing up the care of some veterans but to think that doesn't happen with private insurance and hospitals is just naive.  Health care is a big messy problem that we have to face.  There are no easy answers.  Obama Care is a decent stop gap to bridge private insurance and medicare (government).  I don't think it is a particularity good system either, it has it problems and gaps too.

But to just start screaming "death panels", "Veterans dying in the Streets", "Obama Care is imploding", etc. will never get us to a solution.  Seven years and there is no "conservative" solution.  Maybe this Sanders plan is not the answer either but can we have a rational debate based on facts and try to get through this?



Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 11:10:51 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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But to just start screaming "death panels", "Veterans dying in the Streets", "Obama Care is imploding", etc. will never get us to a solution.  Seven years and there is no "conservative" solution.  Maybe this Sanders plan is not the answer either but can we have a rational debate based on facts and try to get through this?
All those folks who are worried about veterans dying in the street had no problems freezing out veteran disability payments during the government shutdown.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 12:33:41 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Did you really just say the VA doesnt have widespride waiting lines?  I must have misread.

You realize a few year ago Lahey Clinic was turning away veterans at their doors for outsourced medical procedures because the VA wasn't paying their bills?  You cant just say things on the internet and cause them to be true. 

VETERANS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM HOSPITAL DOORS AND YOU THINK THIS IS WORKING WELL?

Jesus christ I can't believe this
I suppose you can source this claim?

I worked at the Edith Nourse VA hospital in bedford massachusetts for a period of time and issued a lump sum payment to Lahey Clinic for past due invoices for tons of services (including stuff we probably shouldn't of paid for based on contractual agreements but had to because it was an emergency)

I can provide information proving my employment if you want it
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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 12:34:44 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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But to just start screaming "death panels", "Veterans dying in the Streets", "Obama Care is imploding", etc. will never get us to a solution.  Seven years and there is no "conservative" solution.  Maybe this Sanders plan is not the answer either but can we have a rational debate based on facts and try to get through this?
All those folks who are worried about veterans dying in the street had no problems freezing out veteran disability payments during the government shutdown.

Ad meet hominem
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 01:12:25 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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But to just start screaming "death panels", "Veterans dying in the Streets", "Obama Care is imploding", etc. will never get us to a solution.  Seven years and there is no "conservative" solution.  Maybe this Sanders plan is not the answer either but can we have a rational debate based on facts and try to get through this?
All those folks who are worried about veterans dying in the street had no problems freezing out veteran disability payments during the government shutdown.

Ad meet hominem
Nope, this is rather factual. The GOP congressional caucus had no problem both crying "death panels" and instituting a shutdown that affected VA's ability to pay benefits.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 01:13:08 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Did you really just say the VA doesnt have widespride waiting lines?  I must have misread.

You realize a few year ago Lahey Clinic was turning away veterans at their doors for outsourced medical procedures because the VA wasn't paying their bills?  You cant just say things on the internet and cause them to be true. 

VETERANS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM HOSPITAL DOORS AND YOU THINK THIS IS WORKING WELL?

Jesus christ I can't believe this
I suppose you can source this claim?

I worked at the Edith Nourse VA hospital in bedford massachusetts for a period of time and issued a lump sum payment to Lahey Clinic for past due invoices for tons of services (including stuff we probably shouldn't of paid for based on contractual agreements but had to because it was an emergency)

I can provide information proving my employment if you want it
And that supports the assertion that veterans were turned away from hospital doors how?
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2017, 01:45:02 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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But to just start screaming "death panels", "Veterans dying in the Streets", "Obama Care is imploding", etc. will never get us to a solution.  Seven years and there is no "conservative" solution.  Maybe this Sanders plan is not the answer either but can we have a rational debate based on facts and try to get through this?
All those folks who are worried about veterans dying in the street had no problems freezing out veteran disability payments during the government shutdown.

Ad meet hominem
Nope, this is rather factual. The GOP congressional caucus had no problem both crying "death panels" and instituting a shutdown that affected VA's ability to pay benefits.

You said all those folks... I mean honestly it added nothing to the discussion regardless so i probably shouldnt have commented. 
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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2017, 01:57:33 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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It is funny to see the conservative arguments go immediately to scare tactics of death panels and taking your money away from you to pay for health care of lazy poor people.  I guess that is what you do when you don't really have a solution of your own.

In general, and largely because of the false conservative narratives that float around, I don't believe that most Americans are facing the real facts about health care. 

#1:  Health care is expensive and getting more expensive.  Tinkering around the edges of the private insurance system is not going to change that.

#2:  America has the VA and Medicare which are sustained systems of delivering health care where there is not widespread waiting lines or rationing.  There are problems (as there are with private insurance systems) and the systems are expensive (as is the private insurance systems) but we do have models for these systems.

#3:  Free market principles do not apply to health care.  It is not like deciding between a used car and a new car.  High deductibles and some other measure can influence use of the system (costs) to some degree but once you get cancer or something like that, you are pretty much forced to buy what the doctor tells you to buy.

#4:  If America does not face up to some level of "rationing" or whatever you want to call it, we will go broke at some point paying for health care.  This is true whether we stay with private insurance, got to single payer, or something in between.

Did you really just say the VA doesnt have widespride waiting lines?  I must have misread.

You realize a few year ago Lahey Clinic was turning away veterans at their doors for outsourced medical procedures because the VA wasn't paying their bills?  You cant just say things on the internet and cause them to be true. 

VETERANS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM HOSPITAL DOORS AND YOU THINK THIS IS WORKING WELL?

Jesus christ I can't believe this
I suppose you can source this claim?

I worked at the Edith Nourse VA hospital in bedford massachusetts for a period of time and issued a lump sum payment to Lahey Clinic for past due invoices for tons of services (including stuff we probably shouldn't of paid for based on contractual agreements but had to because it was an emergency)

I can provide information proving my employment if you want it
And that supports the assertion that veterans were turned away from hospital doors how?

I paid a bill to the hospital to prevent them from being turned away after months and months of negligent operations of the VA. 
CB Draft LA Lakers: Lamarcus Aldridge, Carmelo Anthony,Jrue Holiday, Wes Matthews  6.11, 7.16, 8.14, 8.15, 9.16, 11.5, 11.16

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2017, 01:37:08 PM »

Offline trickybilly

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Harris mos def positioning for 2020 now.

Great speaker. Broad appeal. I like her.
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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2017, 01:41:35 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Harris mos def positioning for 2020 now.

Great speaker. Broad appeal. I like her.
She's probably betting on a losing horse here, though.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2017, 01:44:18 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I paid a bill to the hospital to prevent them from being turned away after months and months of negligent operations of the VA.
I'm a little unsure of what you are describing here. Your clinic had to pay for specialist services out of pocket because the VA dragged their feet with reimbursement? I don't doubt this happened in some form, but I find context here of the essence.
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Re: Kamala Harris co-sponsors bill with Bernie. Shift in Dem strategery?
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2017, 02:54:39 PM »

Offline BDeCosta26

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It is a huge problem looming over us.   The big thing about single payer is how our going to pay for it?  I am not talking about affordability, I mean how do we pay for it when we are drowning in debt?  I think Bernie is a good guy but I am skeptical about how we would pay for a lot of his ideas.   The GOP won't go for just taxing the rich.   The Dems should have done this when they had the chance instead of Obamacare but lacked the courage and the will to get it done.


My recollection of the Obamacare debate, at the time, was that his original bill DID include single-payer.  But the GOP in congress negotiated single-payer out of the bill; in favor of the free market system that now has us all white-knuckling our wallets every time we need of care. 

In my view, until we can address the greed at the c-suite levels of Insurance Companies, our healthcare costs will remain high no matter how the system is administered. 

Healthcare isn't a great market for the laize faire approach, in my view, because healthy people don't consume products & services.  The goal, having a healthy population, is very much at odds with the "business models" of our major healthcare providers. 

I'm all for improving Obamacare, but its going require positive conversations about new ideas.   

The 'repeal & replace later' idea was incredibly short-sited, and the fact that it took the GOP the last seven years to land upon it as their best approach underscores the complexity of the problem.

Like it or not, blue and red are going to have to work TOGETHER on this one.     

Kinda sorta. The original Obamacare plan included a so called "public option", where you could basically "buy-in" to an expanded Medicare/Medicaid type system, which in theory would provide a lower cost option (particularly for people who don't get insurance through their employer but are still employed), and provide competition for private health plans that they'd have to compete with in order to get policyholders.

Naturally, the insurance companies didn't like this idea. They lobbied desperately to try and force it out of the bill, and eventually did by getting Joe Lieberman (2000 Dem VP candidate and Senator from CT, a state with a huge Insurance Co. presence) to vote against the bill unless the "Public-Option" was removed. It's fair to argue that Obamacare would work considerably better with it, as it would give a permanent insurer in all markets and provide a force that tries to limit ballooning health costs. The con argument is that private insurers couldn't compete with such a plan, eventually leading to most Americans ending up with the public option.

It's funny, cause that's kinda he point of this whole debate. By most objective measures, the US pays substantially more for a poorer quality of health coverage than the rest of the developed world. Some of those countries don't necessarily have "single payer" systems (France and Germany for example use universal public base plans supplemented by private insurance for further coverage) but all of them involve government backed universal coverage.

When what ended up being Obamacare was the "conservative" solution to the health care problem, and 7 years of the conservatives screaming "Obamacare is the worst thing ever! We must replace it" has shown that they have literally no plan on what to do, it's time to put the partisanship behind and just take an honest look at how we provide better care. It's pretty apparent, by all evidence, that a more European approach is the way to go.