Poll

Now Playing With Boston Under Brad Stevens, Where Do You Think Irving Will Rank Of ALL Starting PG's In NBA After THIS Season?

#1
16 (14%)
#2
12 (10.5%)
#3
38 (33.3%)
#4
13 (11.4%)
#5
24 (21.1%)
#6
2 (1.8%)
#7
4 (3.5%)
#8
0 (0%)
#9
0 (0%)
#10
1 (0.9%)
#11-12
0 (0%)
#13-14
0 (0%)
#15
0 (0%)
Lower Than Half The League
4 (3.5%)

Total Members Voted: 114

Author Topic: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?  (Read 14589 times)

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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #60 on: September 04, 2017, 08:46:38 PM »

Offline CelticsQuestFor18

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Respect for whoever put him at 10.

Instinctively, my first thought was "only two better - Wall and Russell".

Then I realized I forgot Steph, because he isn't really a traditional PG, seems like that anyway.

Harden, just no. Just. No. Stop it

Will you be upset if KI has a season like the one Harden had last year?


Omg can you imagine Irving having a Harden-like regular season combined with the Killer Kyrie-like playoffs and ice cold clutchness  :angel:


Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2017, 08:54:13 PM »

Offline action781

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I think Wall is incredibly overrated. He gets by a lot on his defensive reputation, but his defense is largely lackluster and lazy. His jumper is also very suspect.

I'll put them in tiers:

Tier 1: Curry, Westbrook, Harden

Tier 2: Paul/Irving/Wall

Tier 3: Lowry, Conley, Kemba

Right now, I think Irving is right there as the fourth best point guard with Paul and Wall. But I think in Boston he could move up into that first tier.

I like this way of looking at it.  I think Tier 1 should be inarguable as stated if we're basing this discussion purely on what we've seen and withholding emotional speculation.  I would add Lillard and IT into Tier 2 based on last season's play.  Lillard has done pretty well in Portland the past two seasons, carrying his team to playoff births in a very difficult conference with little help around him.

Inside each tier, its a bit hard to definitively call one player better than another because they all do some things better than others.
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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2017, 09:31:48 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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This is a tough call, because I feel like there are two different rankings - regular season ranking and playoff ranking. 

In the regular season it is easier for "good" scorers to excel, as you don't have teams spending 7 straight games (and two straight weeks) game-planning against you and make defensive adjustments on account of you.  So often we find that solidly consistent teams filled with jack-of-all-trades players tend to do well in the regular season. 

With that in mind, if we took all players off their teams and look at them on their own, my top regular season PG's would be:

1. Russell Westbrook
2. Chris Paul
3. John Wall
4. Steph Curry
5. Damian Lillard
6. Kyle Lowry
7. Mike Conley
8. Kemba Walker
9. Isaiah Thomas
10. Kyrie Irving

In the playoffs, it's a different ball game.  You aren't trying to get the best record in an 82 game season, so you aren't holding back or pacing yourself. Your aim here is always to win one game at a time - because a single game, or even a single possession, can be the difference between "win or go home".  Also teams spend two full weeks studying your game, planning against it - so the "good" scorers who were able to easily score at a high level during the regular season, often find themselves struggling once opposing teams learn how to plan against their one or two go-to moves.  The playoffs for that reason often tend to be dominated by great pure scorers who can dominate in iso situations, and can score the ball in a variety of ways - these players are more difficult to gameplan against, because if you take something away they can beat you in other ways.  Also depends heavily on a player's natural clutch gene - some guys tend to rise under pressure, while others shrink.

My playoff top 10 PGs would be:

1. Steph Curry
2. Kyrie Irving
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Isaiah Thomas
5. Chris Paul
6. Damian Lillard
7. John Wall
8. Mike Conley
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Kemba Walker
10. Jeff Teague
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 09:44:29 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #63 on: September 04, 2017, 10:25:15 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Ahead: Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Wall, CP3

Essentially tied: IT, Lillard

So, somewhere between 6th and 8th.


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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #64 on: September 04, 2017, 10:27:06 PM »

Online green_bballers13

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Ahead: Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Wall, CP3

Essentially tied: IT, Lillard

So, somewhere between 6th and 8th.

Totally agree. I think that CP3 will start to fall off a little over the coming years, and I could see Lillard stepping his game up to become a legit MVP candidate. I think he has the ability to dominate.

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2017, 10:46:57 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Ahead: Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Wall, CP3

Essentially tied: IT, Lillard

So, somewhere between 6th and 8th.
I would put Wall in the same tier as Kyrie, IT and Lillard. But our I think of the 4 in that tier, Kyrie has the best chance to make it to the top tier and be a top 3 PG in the league.

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2017, 10:55:16 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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I agree with those saying playoff performance is important. What has lilliard or cp3 ever accomplished in the playoffs

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #67 on: September 05, 2017, 12:29:49 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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I agree with those saying playoff performance is important. What has lilliard or cp3 ever accomplished in the playoffs

Do you think they'd have had greater playoff success if they played with Lebron?


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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #68 on: September 05, 2017, 12:56:54 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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I agree with those saying playoff performance is important. What has lilliard or cp3 ever accomplished in the playoffs
Lillard hit a buzzer beater 3 to win the series against Houston, and Paul hit a game winner with 1 second left to beat the Spurs in Game 7. People love to call Kyrie clutch, which he is, but so are those guys. Also it’s a lot easier to win in the playoffs when you’re getting carried by the best player in the league in Lebron.
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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #69 on: September 05, 2017, 01:16:45 AM »

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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2017, 01:33:37 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I agree with those saying playoff performance is important. What has lilliard or cp3 ever accomplished in the playoffs

I'm pretty sure CP3 is statistically one of the most clutch players of the past 10 years.

Chris Paul is unapologetically a pass-first PG, but if you watch the Clippers playoff games where Blake Griffin hasn't played...Chris Paul has almost always come up with 25 - 30 point scoring performances on those nights.

I think he's proven pretty consistently that he is capable of being an elite scorer in this league when he needs to be.  Statistically his shooting numbers are up there with the best from everywhere on the court (from three, from midrange, in the paint, at the basket, from the foul line - you name it). 

CP3 can and does score from anywhere, he is (IMHO) the best playmaker in the league, and is also consistently one of the best defensive PGs in the league - all this despite the fact that he's only 6'0" tall. 

He's also consistently led the (constantly injury prone) Clippers up there among the top 4 teams in the hyper competitive Western Conference, pretty much since the day he landed there - the same Clippers franchise that was practically a laughing stock before Paul arrived.

Not sure if people recall, but the world laughed at the idea that the Clippers might actually be better then the Lakers for the first time in history.  Yet they've been better than the Lakers pretty much every year since CP3 got there. He single handily turned that franchise around, and his elite passing ability was instrumental to creating the "lob city" that allowed allowing Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan to flourish in to max contract All-Stars.

So in fairness, I think Chris Paul has earned his place among the very best at his position.

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2017, 01:34:48 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I agree with those saying playoff performance is important. What has lilliard or cp3 ever accomplished in the playoffs

I'm pretty sure CP3 is statistically one of the most clutch players of the past 10 years.


Chris Paul is unapologetically a pass-first PG, but if you watch the Clippers playoff games where Blake Griffin hasn't played...Chris Paul has almost always come up with 25 - 30 point scoring performances on those nights.

I think he's proven pretty consistently that he is capable of being an elite scorer in this league when he needs to be.  Statistically his shooting numbers are up there with the best from everywhere on the court (from three, from midrange, in the paint, at the basket, from the foul line - you name it). 

CP3 can and does score from anywhere, he is (IMHO) the best playmaker in the league, and is also consistently one of the best defensive PGs in the league - all this despite the fact that he's only 6'0" tall. 

He's also consistently led the (constantly injury prone) Clippers up there among the top 4 teams in the hyper competitive Western Conference, pretty much since the day he landed there - the same Clippers franchise that was practically a laughing stock before Paul arrived.

Not sure if people recall, but the world laughed at the idea that the Clippers might actually be better then the Lakers for the first time in history.  Yet they've been better than the Lakers pretty much every year since CP3 got there. He single handily turned that franchise around, and his elite passing ability was instrumental to creating the "lob city" that allowed allowing Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan to flourish in to max contract All-Stars.

So in fairness, I think Chris Paul has earned his place among the very best at his position.
Iirc from 07 to 14 Jeff Green was top 3 in that category, so there's that for clutchness.
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Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2017, 03:15:16 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I agree with those saying playoff performance is important. What has lilliard or cp3 ever accomplished in the playoffs

I'm pretty sure CP3 is statistically one of the most clutch players of the past 10 years.


Chris Paul is unapologetically a pass-first PG, but if you watch the Clippers playoff games where Blake Griffin hasn't played...Chris Paul has almost always come up with 25 - 30 point scoring performances on those nights.

I think he's proven pretty consistently that he is capable of being an elite scorer in this league when he needs to be.  Statistically his shooting numbers are up there with the best from everywhere on the court (from three, from midrange, in the paint, at the basket, from the foul line - you name it). 

CP3 can and does score from anywhere, he is (IMHO) the best playmaker in the league, and is also consistently one of the best defensive PGs in the league - all this despite the fact that he's only 6'0" tall. 

He's also consistently led the (constantly injury prone) Clippers up there among the top 4 teams in the hyper competitive Western Conference, pretty much since the day he landed there - the same Clippers franchise that was practically a laughing stock before Paul arrived.

Not sure if people recall, but the world laughed at the idea that the Clippers might actually be better then the Lakers for the first time in history.  Yet they've been better than the Lakers pretty much every year since CP3 got there. He single handily turned that franchise around, and his elite passing ability was instrumental to creating the "lob city" that allowed allowing Blake Griffin and Deandre Jordan to flourish in to max contract All-Stars.

So in fairness, I think Chris Paul has earned his place among the very best at his position.
Iirc from 07 to 14 Jeff Green was top 3 in that category, so there's that for clutchness.

Do you know what Chris Paul has averaged in the playoffs vs regular season the past three years?

Regular season:
2014/15: 19.1 pts, 10.2 ast, 4.6 reb, 1.9 stl, 49% FG
2015/16: 19.5 pts, 10.0 ast, 4.2 reb, 2.1 stl, 46% FG
2016/17: 18.1 pts, 9.2 ast, 5.0 reb, 2.0 stl, 48% FG

Playoffs:
2014/15: 22.1 pts, 8.8 ast, 4.4 reb, 1.8 stl, 50% FG
2015/16:23.8 pts, 7.3 ast, 4.0 reb, 2.3 stl, 49% FG
2016/17: 25.3 pts, 9.9 ast, 5.0 reb, 1.7 stl, 50% FG

That's +3 PPG / +4.3 PPG / +7.2 PPG in the playoffs versus the regular season over the past three seasons, all while consistently hovering around the 50% FG mark - which is phenomenal for a 6'0" PG.

If that isn't proof of a man who elevates his game on the big stage, then I don't know what is... 

Chris Paul is an elite PG and is absolutely in the top tier of PGs right now.  And with career playoff averages of 21 PPG / 9.4 APG / 4.7 RPG / 2.2 SPG he will also go down as one of the top tier all-time PGs.  He ranks 3rd all time in assists, 6th all time in steals, 6th all time in PER, 2nd all time in Win Shares Per 48, 3rd all time in Box Plus/Minus...

He is quite probably the best PG this game has seen since John Stockton.

So when you combine all of the information I just noted above in combination with his statistical excellence in clutch situations - I think it's safe to say that he gets a pass here, and that he is not comparable in any way to Jeff Green.

Unfortunately he has had difficulties with injuries in his career (both himself and those around him - David West, Eric Gordon, Blake Griffin) and that has held him back in his pursuit of the ultimate goal.  But that is not something he can control, and not something we can fault him for.  He deserves to have his name at the top just like the other all time greats who didn't win a title (Malone, Stockton, Ewing, etc). 

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2017, 03:28:52 AM »

Offline CelticsElite

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And yet cp3 never even gets to the WCF even playing on stacked rosters. So much for clutch elevated gameplay in losing efforts

Ill take the winner anytime over him

Re: Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2017, 08:29:33 AM »

Online Moranis

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And yet cp3 never even gets to the WCF even playing on stacked rosters. So much for clutch elevated gameplay in losing efforts

Ill take the winner anytime over him
The winner that isn't his team's best player, doesn't mean much.  Irving can't take credit for playoff wins until he is the team's leader.  It is just a whole different ball game when you have to do the work and not ride someone else's coattails.  Maybe Irving will be able to prove his merit and worth, or maybe not.  It was a gamble worth taking for the Celtics imo, but the reality is it was a tremendous gamble.
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