Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?

[Granath]

It was supposed to say "almost". Sorry for the omission but it doesn't change a [dang] thing.

If we asked the same question a week ago, the answers would have almost certainly been between 6th and 10th. Now that he's in green we have people thinking he's top 3. It's Homerism at its worst. Irving didn't get better yet and he hasn't done particularly well with the few opportunities he's had to be The Man.

I'm not writing off his abilities. I'm not writing off the ability for Brad to improve a player. But let's not pretend he's suddenly a top 3 stud because he plays on the Celtics. He has to prove that he is.

There is certainly homerism, but... Let's say someone's list of PG's at the end of the season was something like Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Wall, Lillard, Kyrie. So Irving is 8.

Harden will go back to SG next seaosn. IT becoming a 2nd option knocks him back. The margin between Wall, Lillard and Kyrie is razor thin but just giving Kyrie the keys to his own car, I think he leapfrogs them. That gets him to 4.

Westbrook has a new all star teammate and (presumably) won't be as heck-bent on winning the MVP as he was last season. Paul will be on a new team and sharing the ball with Harden. If it's possible that either one of them takes even a marginal step backwards and Kyrie's effort/decision making increasing under Stevens, Kyrie can become the 3rd or even 2nd best PG in the league next season.

Homerism? Sure. But it's not that improbable, is it?

That's a wee bit improbable. Basically you just said "if everyone else falls off and Irving take the leap then he'll be a top 3 PG". That's what that boils down to. That's okay. It's to be expected from fans of the team. But looking at this realistically....

Impossible? No. But no more probable then finding out that Lebron really covered for Kyrie's deficiencies and that he's really no better than the 10th or 11th PG in the league. That's especially so when you consider his lack of durability and his truly awful defensive efforts. He could very well be nothing more than 6'3" 2 guard who is a sieve on defense who we might not resign in two years. That's a scary thought.

I think so many here are pooh-poohing the risks that this deal really entails. It's a very high-risk deal. It's a lot easier to gamble when your team sucks (the KG deal). It's quite another to completely gut an ascending, 53 win team. Ainge has pulled off two stunning - almost reckless - deals this summer: the trade down for Tatum and the Irving deal. Both have to pan out or he's screwed up this team big time. I'm not saying they won't but I'm not sure I'd have made either move (and I was one of the bigger Tatum fans prior to the draft). I'm hopeful but I can't say I'm optimistic.

[PickNRoll]

Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Kyrie.  4th

[hodgy03038]

Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Kyrie.  4th

I misunderstood the question when I voted 3. I would vote 5 because the list above is good but I think I would put Wall in front of Kyrie. Maybe after this year and playing under Stevens' system rather than Lebron's he climbs in that poll.

[Phantom255x]

Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Kyrie.  4th

With CP3 in Houston now I think Harden no longer applies as PG.

I forgot about that too when I made this post and poll lol.

[PickNRoll]

Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Kyrie.  4th

With CP3 in Houston now I think Harden no longer applies as PG.

I forgot about that too when I made this post and poll lol.

D'Antoni's offense is 4 chuckers and a dive man, so there's really only 2 positions. 

[Phantom255x]

Westbrook, Curry, Harden, Kyrie.  4th

With CP3 in Houston now I think Harden no longer applies as PG.

I forgot about that too when I made this post and poll lol.

D'Antoni's offense is 4 chuckers and a dive man, so there's really only 2 positions. 

LOL. So in that case HOU doesn't even have a PG. Not even CP3.

[keevsnick]

I'd say he'd behind Curry, Harden Westbrook and Paul, so 5th. Although you could make the case Wall is ahead or him. No worse than 6th.

[PickNRoll]

I'd say he'd behind Curry, Harden Westbrook and Paul, so 5th. Although you could make the case Wall is ahead or him. No worse than 6th.

I think Chris Paul has lost a step. 3 years ago I would've agreed. 

[Big333223]

It was supposed to say "almost". Sorry for the omission but it doesn't change a [dang] thing.

If we asked the same question a week ago, the answers would have almost certainly been between 6th and 10th. Now that he's in green we have people thinking he's top 3. It's Homerism at its worst. Irving didn't get better yet and he hasn't done particularly well with the few opportunities he's had to be The Man.

I'm not writing off his abilities. I'm not writing off the ability for Brad to improve a player. But let's not pretend he's suddenly a top 3 stud because he plays on the Celtics. He has to prove that he is.

There is certainly homerism, but... Let's say someone's list of PG's at the end of the season was something like Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Wall, Lillard, Kyrie. So Irving is 8.

Harden will go back to SG next seaosn. IT becoming a 2nd option knocks him back. The margin between Wall, Lillard and Kyrie is razor thin but just giving Kyrie the keys to his own car, I think he leapfrogs them. That gets him to 4.

Westbrook has a new all star teammate and (presumably) won't be as heck-bent on winning the MVP as he was last season. Paul will be on a new team and sharing the ball with Harden. If it's possible that either one of them takes even a marginal step backwards and Kyrie's effort/decision making increasing under Stevens, Kyrie can become the 3rd or even 2nd best PG in the league next season.

Homerism? Sure. But it's not that improbable, is it?

That's a wee bit improbable. Basically you just said "if everyone else falls off and Irving take the leap then he'll be a top 3 PG". That's what that boils down to. That's okay. It's to be expected from fans of the team. But looking at this realistically....

Impossible? No. But no more probable then finding out that Lebron really covered for Kyrie's deficiencies and that he's really no better than the 10th or 11th PG in the league. That's especially so when you consider his lack of durability and his truly awful defensive efforts. He could very well be nothing more than 6'3" 2 guard who is a sieve on defense who we might not resign in two years. That's a scary thought.

I think so many here are pooh-poohing the risks that this deal really entails. It's a very high-risk deal. It's a lot easier to gamble when your team sucks (the KG deal). It's quite another to completely gut an ascending, 53 win team. Ainge has pulled off two stunning - almost reckless - deals this summer: the trade down for Tatum and the Irving deal. Both have to pan out or he's screwed up this team big time. I'm not saying they won't but I'm not sure I'd have made either move (and I was one of the bigger Tatum fans prior to the draft). I'm hopeful but I can't say I'm optimistic.

I didn't say, "If everyone falls off" I said, Kyrie should be expected to take a step forward simply by being the #1 option on his team and playing for the best coach he's ever had which could be enough to leap to 4th best PG. After that, there are big changes for both Paul and Westbrook that may or may not help their games. These are things that are actually happening and will have an affect on these players' games.

Beyond that, we've seen Kyrie without Lebron. He was an all star and an all star game MVP before Lebron. Whe he played for team USA he was one of the best players on the team. So the idea that, without Lebron, Kyrie is going to regress, while possible, seems much much less likely.

[Granath]

It was supposed to say "almost". Sorry for the omission but it doesn't change a [dang] thing.

If we asked the same question a week ago, the answers would have almost certainly been between 6th and 10th. Now that he's in green we have people thinking he's top 3. It's Homerism at its worst. Irving didn't get better yet and he hasn't done particularly well with the few opportunities he's had to be The Man.

I'm not writing off his abilities. I'm not writing off the ability for Brad to improve a player. But let's not pretend he's suddenly a top 3 stud because he plays on the Celtics. He has to prove that he is.

There is certainly homerism, but... Let's say someone's list of PG's at the end of the season was something like Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Wall, Lillard, Kyrie. So Irving is 8.

Harden will go back to SG next seaosn. IT becoming a 2nd option knocks him back. The margin between Wall, Lillard and Kyrie is razor thin but just giving Kyrie the keys to his own car, I think he leapfrogs them. That gets him to 4.

Westbrook has a new all star teammate and (presumably) won't be as heck-bent on winning the MVP as he was last season. Paul will be on a new team and sharing the ball with Harden. If it's possible that either one of them takes even a marginal step backwards and Kyrie's effort/decision making increasing under Stevens, Kyrie can become the 3rd or even 2nd best PG in the league next season.

Homerism? Sure. But it's not that improbable, is it?

That's a wee bit improbable. Basically you just said "if everyone else falls off and Irving take the leap then he'll be a top 3 PG". That's what that boils down to. That's okay. It's to be expected from fans of the team. But looking at this realistically....

Impossible? No. But no more probable then finding out that Lebron really covered for Kyrie's deficiencies and that he's really no better than the 10th or 11th PG in the league. That's especially so when you consider his lack of durability and his truly awful defensive efforts. He could very well be nothing more than 6'3" 2 guard who is a sieve on defense who we might not resign in two years. That's a scary thought.

I think so many here are pooh-poohing the risks that this deal really entails. It's a very high-risk deal. It's a lot easier to gamble when your team sucks (the KG deal). It's quite another to completely gut an ascending, 53 win team. Ainge has pulled off two stunning - almost reckless - deals this summer: the trade down for Tatum and the Irving deal. Both have to pan out or he's screwed up this team big time. I'm not saying they won't but I'm not sure I'd have made either move (and I was one of the bigger Tatum fans prior to the draft). I'm hopeful but I can't say I'm optimistic.

I didn't say, "If everyone falls off" I said, Kyrie should be expected to take a step forward simply by being the #1 option on his team and playing for the best coach he's ever had which could be enough to leap to 4th best PG. After that, there are big changes for both Paul and Westbrook that may or may not help their games. These are things that are actually happening and will have an affect on these players' games.

Beyond that, we've seen Kyrie without Lebron. He was an all star and an all star game MVP before Lebron. Whe he played for team USA he was one of the best players on the team. So the idea that, without Lebron, Kyrie is going to regress, while possible, seems much much less likely.

You're right, we have seen Kyrie without Lebron. He's lost almost every single NBA game where that's been the case and almost always finishes with a negative plus/minus. I think that data set is equally or of greater importance than some exhibition game or a loaded Olympic team. You can cherry pick your data to reach the conclusion you want but hand-waive it away at your own peril. There is real, hard evidence out there to suggest that Kyrie could regress and it's based on his losing games in the NBA. Hopefully Brad can get more out of Irving than Cleveland ever could, because if he can't this trade is a bust.

[trickybilly]

Respect for whoever put him at 10.

Instinctively, my first thought was "only two better - Wall and Russell".

Then I realized I forgot Steph, because he isn't really a traditional PG, seems like that anyway.

Harden, just no. Just. No. Stop it

[greece66]

Respect for whoever put him at 10.

Instinctively, my first thought was "only two better - Wall and Russell".

Then I realized I forgot Steph, because he isn't really a traditional PG, seems like that anyway.

Harden, just no. Just. No. Stop it

Will you be upset if KI has a season like the one Harden had last year?

[keevsnick]

I'd say he'd behind Curry, Harden Westbrook and Paul, so 5th. Although you could make the case Wall is ahead or him. No worse than 6th.

I think Chris Paul has lost a step. 3 years ago I would've agreed.

That's fair, advanced metrics are still very kind to Chris Paul and he's a far superior defensive player to Irving. I still think he's ahead of Irving right now, but given age I'd rather have Irving. It is important to note that all these the players we are discussing, Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, Wall, Paul even Lowry are at least 1.5 years older than Irving, usually more.

[mgent]

Not better than Curry or Westbrook.

[Phantom255x]

Not better than Curry or Westbrook.

I think that's fair, although Irving can certainly be more efficient than RW IMHO.