Poll: Irving's Ranking Of All Starting PG's Now Playing W/Boston?

[PhoSita]

I have him solidly behind Curry, Westbrook, Paul, and Wall.  Harden, too, if you count him as a PG.

Lowry and Conley are obviously less deadly offensively but are two way players who create for others and lead on and off the court.

Isaiah Thomas is a similar player but has shown more leadership and playmaking ability.  He also put up bigger numbers in a larger role last year.


Right now the closest guy I have to Lillard in the PG rankings is Damian Lillard.  Kyrie is probably more talented than Dame, but has yet to demonstrate that he's more than a clutch shot-maker who doesn't necessarily elevate average teammates.

Kemba is close, also, but isn't quite there.


Kyrie is clearly ahead of guys like Dragic, Hill, and Teague.



Assuming Kyrie plays a full season with the Celts in a larger role,  I think he may surpass Lowry and Conley, and probably Isaiah (given the hip injury) but I don't see him definitively establishing that he's superior to Wall or Paul.

So at best, maybe 5th or 6th.


But, all of the guys ahead of him on that list are a few years older.  Not many great point guard prospects have come into the league since Irving was drafted.  So a few years down the road, he might be number one.

[jpotter33]

I think Wall is incredibly overrated. He gets by a lot on his defensive reputation, but his defense is largely lackluster and lazy. His jumper is also very suspect.

I'll put them in tiers:

Tier 1: Curry, Westbrook, Harden

Tier 2: Paul/Irving/Wall

Tier 3: Lowry, Conley, Kemba

Right now, I think Irving is right there as the fourth best point guard with Paul and Wall. But I think in Boston he could move up into that first tier.

[jpotter33]

Assuming this trade doesn't get voided and Irving is coming to Boston, where do you think Irving will rank of all starting PG's now that he's with Boston.

Generally, most "Point Guard Rankings/Power Rankings" done by VARIOUS sites have Irving BETWEEN #6-10 in their rankings, and they typically say it's lower than #6 because Irving can't generate assists with his teammates and his defense is POOR. Some of these rankings have Isaiah higher than Irving (welp) because while his defense is also bad, Isaiah can generate assists to his teammates, as he showed last season.

Although some sites were also HARSHER with Irving, putting him just a little over Top-15 (half the league) and saying he needs to improve his defense a lot, become a better playmaker (pass the ball around and generate assists), and score more efficiently.

So, if you think Irving will elevate his game and become a Harden-esque type guard here or something close, where do you think Irving will rank after this season, playing with Boston under Brad Stevens? I definitely hope Stevens can get the best out of Irving and elevate his game even further. This will definitely be the best coach Irving has had since his college days at Duke.

My Prediction? #7. I have (in no order) Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Wall, Lilliard and CP3 ahead of Irving. Although a lot depends on how Paul will fit in with Houston and it's pretty close with the other grouping of Lowry/Kemba/Conley to be honest. And if Isaiah misses a month or two but comes back fairly healthy, I think he is ahead of Irving still which pushes it to #8. Isaiah WAS higher than Irving in most of these and had the better season last year than Irving.

Where is this notion coming from that IT is some great facilitator that is much better than Kyrie?

Last year Kyrie averaged 5.8 assists per game with IT averaging 5.9 assists per game. Kyrie had an assist percentage of 29.7 where IT had an assist percentage of 32.5. Considering the context of Kyrie playing with Lebron in a system with much less ball-movement, I think this hardly shows that IT is a better or more willing passer than Kyrie.

And this bears out in their career stats, too. For their careers, Kyrie is at 5.5 assists per game and IT is at 5.2 assists per game. Further, Kyrie's assist percentage is 30.0 compared to IT's assist percentage of 29.7.

While this doesn't show that Kyrie is necessarily a better or more willing facilitator (though I think we'll see just that this season in Boston), it also certainly doesn't show that IT is some great facilitator that is better than Kyrie.

[gouki88]

Westbrook and Harden 1a and 1b, then I have Kyrie. I think he eclipses Curry and Paul and all those other guys in that area.

[Big333223]

Harden probably shouldn't be in consideration anymore since he'll go back to playing SG next season, with Chris Paul on the team.

[Phantom255x]

Harden probably shouldn't be in consideration anymore since he'll go back to playing SG next season, with Chris Paul on the team.

Right, my bad, that's true. Oh well lol.

[Phantom255x]

Assuming this trade doesn't get voided and Irving is coming to Boston, where do you think Irving will rank of all starting PG's now that he's with Boston.

Generally, most "Point Guard Rankings/Power Rankings" done by VARIOUS sites have Irving BETWEEN #6-10 in their rankings, and they typically say it's lower than #6 because Irving can't generate assists with his teammates and his defense is POOR. Some of these rankings have Isaiah higher than Irving (welp) because while his defense is also bad, Isaiah can generate assists to his teammates, as he showed last season.

Although some sites were also HARSHER with Irving, putting him just a little over Top-15 (half the league) and saying he needs to improve his defense a lot, become a better playmaker (pass the ball around and generate assists), and score more efficiently.

So, if you think Irving will elevate his game and become a Harden-esque type guard here or something close, where do you think Irving will rank after this season, playing with Boston under Brad Stevens? I definitely hope Stevens can get the best out of Irving and elevate his game even further. This will definitely be the best coach Irving has had since his college days at Duke.

My Prediction? #7. I have (in no order) Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Wall, Lilliard and CP3 ahead of Irving. Although a lot depends on how Paul will fit in with Houston and it's pretty close with the other grouping of Lowry/Kemba/Conley to be honest. And if Isaiah misses a month or two but comes back fairly healthy, I think he is ahead of Irving still which pushes it to #8. Isaiah WAS higher than Irving in most of these and had the better season last year than Irving.

Where is this notion coming from that IT is some great facilitator that is much better than Kyrie?

Last year Kyrie averaged 5.8 assists per game with IT averaging 5.9 assists per game. Kyrie had an assist percentage of 29.7 where IT had an assist percentage of 32.5. Considering the context of Kyrie playing with Lebron in a system with much less ball-movement, I think this hardly shows that IT is a better or more willing passer than Kyrie.

And this bears out in their career stats, too. For their careers, Kyrie is at 5.5 assists per game and IT is at 5.2 assists per game. Further, Kyrie's assist percentage is 30.0 compared to IT's assist percentage of 29.7.

While this doesn't show that Kyrie is necessarily a better or more willing facilitator (though I think we'll see just that this season in Boston), it also certainly doesn't show that IT is some great facilitator that is better than Kyrie.

To be honest, it's a notion that MANY sites are using. Here's Bleacher for example (and they have Irving ranked #11 of all Starting PGs):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2700139-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-point-guards

11. Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers (Previous Ranking: No. 8 )

Age: 25

Per-Game Stats: 25.3 points, 3.3 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.4 blocks

Advanced Metrics: 23.0 PER, 2.04 RPM, 113.69 TPA

"When you've got one of the top-three point guards in the league and the best player in the world, that's your job. You're supposed to carry us and do what you've been doing," Cleveland Cavaliers head coach Tyronn Lue said after his team's loss to the San Antonio Spurs, per ESPN.com's Ramona Shelburne. He's obviously referring to Kyrie Irving, and it's not difficult to see how he could think such a thing when serving as a firsthand witness to his dribbling exploits and high-scoring ways.

But there's not much of an argument to support Lue, and there won't be until Irving shores up his atrocious defense, functions as more of a playmaker and gets more efficient as a scorer. He's still more than a tier below the top three, even if his flash can occasionally contradict that statement.

And most other rankings had Isaiah above Kyrie not just because of scoring, but because IT was also more of a playmaker and got others involved. Some even put Isaiah above Kyrie because of his playmaking ability and assists to turnover ratios, etc.

Though that's true, I guess you are right in saying that it was only because Kyrie was a #2 on a team with Lebron lol.

[Vermont Green]

Weighted average is at 3.77 if I did my math right.  Sounds about right.  I picked 4 but that included Harden above him and as some have pointed out, that may change since the Rockets now have Chris Paul.

I think is it hard to put Irving above Westbrook and Curry so I see #3 as the highest he could go.   3.77 sounds just about right, depending on how you count Harden.

[Tr1boy]

He hasnt played a min...lets see 1st

[jpotter33]

Assuming this trade doesn't get voided and Irving is coming to Boston, where do you think Irving will rank of all starting PG's now that he's with Boston.

Generally, most "Point Guard Rankings/Power Rankings" done by VARIOUS sites have Irving BETWEEN #6-10 in their rankings, and they typically say it's lower than #6 because Irving can't generate assists with his teammates and his defense is POOR. Some of these rankings have Isaiah higher than Irving (welp) because while his defense is also bad, Isaiah can generate assists to his teammates, as he showed last season.

Although some sites were also HARSHER with Irving, putting him just a little over Top-15 (half the league) and saying he needs to improve his defense a lot, become a better playmaker (pass the ball around and generate assists), and score more efficiently.

So, if you think Irving will elevate his game and become a Harden-esque type guard here or something close, where do you think Irving will rank after this season, playing with Boston under Brad Stevens? I definitely hope Stevens can get the best out of Irving and elevate his game even further. This will definitely be the best coach Irving has had since his college days at Duke.

My Prediction? #7. I have (in no order) Curry, Westbrook, Harden, Wall, Lilliard and CP3 ahead of Irving. Although a lot depends on how Paul will fit in with Houston and it's pretty close with the other grouping of Lowry/Kemba/Conley to be honest. And if Isaiah misses a month or two but comes back fairly healthy, I think he is ahead of Irving still which pushes it to #8. Isaiah WAS higher than Irving in most of these and had the better season last year than Irving.

Where is this notion coming from that IT is some great facilitator that is much better than Kyrie?

Last year Kyrie averaged 5.8 assists per game with IT averaging 5.9 assists per game. Kyrie had an assist percentage of 29.7 where IT had an assist percentage of 32.5. Considering the context of Kyrie playing with Lebron in a system with much less ball-movement, I think this hardly shows that IT is a better or more willing passer than Kyrie.

And this bears out in their career stats, too. For their careers, Kyrie is at 5.5 assists per game and IT is at 5.2 assists per game. Further, Kyrie's assist percentage is 30.0 compared to IT's assist percentage of 29.7.

While this doesn't show that Kyrie is necessarily a better or more willing facilitator (though I think we'll see just that this season in Boston), it also certainly doesn't show that IT is some great facilitator that is better than Kyrie.

To be honest, it's a notion that MANY sites are using. Here's Bleacher for example (and they have Irving ranked #11 of all Starting PGs):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2700139-nba-position-power-rankings-end-of-regular-season-edition-point-guards

11. Kyrie Irving, Cleveland Cavaliers (Previous Ranking: No. 8 )

Age: 25

Per-Game Stats: 25.3 points, 3.3 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 1.2 steals, 0.4 blocks

Advanced Metrics: 23.0 PER, 2.04 RPM, 113.69 TPA

"When you've got one of the top-three point guards in the league and the best player in the world, that's your job. You're supposed to carry us and do what you've been doing," Cleveland Cavaliers head coach Tyronn Lue said after his team's loss to the San Antonio Spurs, per ESPN.com's Ramona Shelburne. He's obviously referring to Kyrie Irving, and it's not difficult to see how he could think such a thing when serving as a firsthand witness to his dribbling exploits and high-scoring ways.

But there's not much of an argument to support Lue, and there won't be until Irving shores up his atrocious defense, functions as more of a playmaker and gets more efficient as a scorer. He's still more than a tier below the top three, even if his flash can occasionally contradict that statement.

And most other rankings had Isaiah above Kyrie not just because of scoring, but because IT was also more of a playmaker and got others involved. Some even put Isaiah above Kyrie because of his playmaking ability and assists to turnover ratios, etc.

Though that's true, I guess you are right in saying that it was only because Kyrie was a #2 on a team with Lebron lol.

Yeah, I think Kyrie should do considerably better here under Brad's system and not paired with Lebron. Hayward will handle the ball and initiate the playmaking some, along with Horford, but I think Kyrie will still see many more playmaking opportunities in Boston's system than what he got in Cleveland.

Hell, just the extra ball movement and off-the-ball player movement should open up Kyrie's playmaking considerably.

[Granath]

I get that we're ranking him now that he's with Boston but the only way to project that is to look at what he's done the last couple of years. There are some guys who are really far ahead of him on the court during that time:

Westbrook
Harden
Curry
Paul
Wall
Walker
Lowry

The first 3 aren't even debatable.
Chris Paul doesn't score as much but it a far better facilitator and defensive player.
Wall is as good of a scorer, a better passer and is less bad on the defensive end.
Walker is grossly underrated. He may not quite be as good as Irving offensively but miles better defensively.
Lowry simply has been a better all-around player the last two years.

Notice I didn't put in IT, even though Thomas actually has been slightly better. He and Kyrie have been equivalents - great offensive players who are incredibly bad on the defensive end. Nor did I mention Lillard but you could easily put him above Irving. Conley loses on the offensive end of the floor but again is so far superior on the defensive end it's not even funny.

So there's a decent argument to be made that Irving has been only about the 11th best PG in the league. With improved defensive effort he moves up past Lowry (and even Kemba Walker) into 6th or 7th. But it's really tough to argue that he's better than the guys above that unless he truly elevates his game.

I'm sure he'll be used better by Brad than he was in Cleveland but I'm not buying the narrative that somehow Lebron was holding him back. If there's anything Lebron has been known for it's him being a good teammate and him facilitating other players. Lebron didn't cause him to loaf on the defensive end of the floor. Lebron didn't hurt him by allowing him to be single-teamed while The King soaked up 2 or 3 defenders. The only thing Lebron might have hurt are his usage percentage and his assist numbers and I'm not convinced of either of those.

So if we just traded for the 8th-11th best PG in the league and he doesn't get any better, how does that color everyone's view of the trade?

[SHAQATTACK]

he never has had a real coach .   Lewhiner hates authority .  Thats no team system Labron teaches , its some screwed up form of thug ball which fit Wades style to a tee.

Coach K did not have him long enough
Coach Blatt was fired by the Whiner for trying to add structure and basics .
Lue is no coach , no backbone , ......yes man for Le whiner brand of thug ball.
As a rookie Irving was thrown out on the court like a dog to take on the NBA. Just...do the best you can kid , our team sucks ....just make baskets ..smh.....typical loser basketball FO.

[unclebay]

Are y'all serious with some of these rankings? Lowry, Conley??
Westbrook and Curry are clearly the best in the game but Kyrie, Isaiah, Wall and maybe Lillard are very clearly the next few.

[Tr1boy]

Are y'all serious with some of these rankings? Lowry, Conley??
Westbrook and Curry are clearly the best in the game but Kyrie, Isaiah, Wall and maybe Lillard are very clearly the next few.

Kyrie has excelled at the biggest stage , while RW choked.

[Curley]

Are y'all serious with some of these rankings? Lowry, Conley??
Westbrook and Curry are clearly the best in the game but Kyrie, Isaiah, Wall and maybe Lillard are very clearly the next few.

Kyrie has excelled at the biggest stage , while RW choked.

Agree, RW stats were obviously off the charts ... he imposes his athleticism on the game, but I do not see this translate in the most crucial moments.  As a teammate I would not really enjoy playing with him.

I would rather have Curry and Paul if he was not 32.  I have Kyrie #2.