Author Topic: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...  (Read 15602 times)

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Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2017, 01:10:02 AM »

Online knuckleballer

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Kyrie has never had good coaching in the NBA and for the past few years he has played in an ISO offense which I don't think brings out the best from point guards.  I think, maybe hope, that playing for Stevens in the Celtics offense will make him a better player.  IT was a sixth man nobody wanted who turned into a star under Stevens.  Look at how E Turner played for Stevens as well as Jordan Crawford.  Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think Irving could be close to a top 5 player under Stevens.

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2017, 01:29:42 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
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Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2017, 01:38:46 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2017, 01:39:56 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Thomas was already able to put 20ppg on the board as early as 24. He had an above-average season last year, but good luck if you think that he'll score 30ppg season in and season out for the rest of his career.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2017, 01:46:34 AM »

Offline Jack_Frost

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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10  player with the right coach

So was IT.

Maybe. I don't think so but probably i'm wrong. Anyway i think it's a big error to read the trade that way. IT wanted the maximum... and he is 29 (i don think he deserve the maximum too). You take a 25 year old player with very good contract who expressed the willing to resign here after the 2 years. He wiil ask for the maximum when he will be 27. Celtocs now have a very good window with young players... and it will be wide open when cavs will be gone (as soon as next year)

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2017, 01:50:07 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
Sure, but this doesn't mean you should expect some sort of radical improvement after the age of 25. Guys will likely become incrementally better. But poor defenders will probably be poor defenders, and mediocre shooters will probably remain mediocre.

The idea that Irving will manufacture some sort of defensive prowess out of thin air is probably as optimistic as the notion that Marcus Smart will all of a sudden become .400 three point shooter. It's not likely to happen.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2017, 01:52:00 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10  player with the right coach

So was IT.

Maybe. I don't think so but probably i'm wrong. Anyway i think it's a big error to read the trade that way. IT wanted the maximum... and he is 29 (i don think he deserve the maximum too). You take a 25 year old player with very good contract who expressed the willing to resign here after the 2 years. He wiil ask for the maximum when he will be 27. Celtocs now have a very good window with young players... and it will be wide open when cavs will be gone (as soon as next year)

It's a miracle a 25 year old like this was even available. Teams don't get rid of talents this young. I still can't believe the C's were given this option.

The GM set it up perfectly by stockpiling big time assets.

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2017, 02:10:19 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
Sure, but this doesn't mean you should expect some sort of radical improvement after the age of 25. Guys will likely become incrementally better. But poor defenders will probably be poor defenders, and mediocre shooters will probably remain mediocre.

The idea that Irving will manufacture some sort of defensive prowess out of thin air is probably as optimistic as the notion that Marcus Smart will all of a sudden become .400 three point shooter. It's not likely to happen.
I don't disagree with that. I'm not expecting some Curry like jump.

But if Kyrie can just play solid defence consistently (as he did in the 2016 finals) then it'll be fantastic, just like if Smart can turn into a .350 three point shooter ;)
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2017, 02:28:25 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10  player with the right coach

So was IT.

Maybe. I don't think so but probably i'm wrong. Anyway i think it's a big error to read the trade that way. IT wanted the maximum... and he is 29 (i don think he deserve the maximum too). You take a 25 year old player with very good contract who expressed the willing to resign here after the 2 years. He wiil ask for the maximum when he will be 27. Celtocs now have a very good window with young players... and it will be wide open when cavs will be gone (as soon as next year)

It's a miracle a 25 year old like this was even available. Teams don't get rid of talents this young. I still can't believe the C's were given this option.

The GM set it up perfectly by stockpiling big time assets.

A miracle? Let's not go overboard.

Chris Paul, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Demarcus Cousins, James Harden were 23-27 when traded, just to name a few.

This is being spun into the coup of the century by some on here. Danny got a good player. Danny gave up a lot for said player. If Isaiah is fully healthy (and has another MVP-caliber campaign) and the Nets are the worst team in the league again, this was a terrible deal. If Isaiah's hip is never the same and the pick lands around #10, it was a good deal.
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Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2017, 02:35:43 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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This is being spun into the coup of the century by some on here. Danny got a good player. Danny gave up a lot for said player. If Isaiah is fully healthy (and has another MVP-caliber campaign) and the Nets are the worst team in the league again, this was a terrible deal. If Isaiah's hip is never the same and the pick lands around #10, it was a good deal.
Even if Isaiah reverts to being as good as he was two seasons ago, and the Nets pick ends up being #5-6, this deal is still probably slanted heavily in our favor.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2017, 02:40:49 AM »

Offline PaulP34

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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie, who:

* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.

We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter).  It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden...  I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.

I share ur concern. I to, did not agree with the price we gave up to get Kyrie Irvin. We lost out on a Brooklyn pick who would of sealed a chance at another Tatum type prospect. We lost our defensive big bodied rebounder Crowder and a young promising 7 footer Zizic who i was high on. All these are valid arguments.

But the more i look at it from 3000 feet up, the more it makes sense. 29 year old IT wanted a max deal, when he had already played his best year and that hip is gonna slow him down to where all hes going to do is pass and facilitate the ball this year to Gordon and Brown. IT will not be the scorer he was last year because of the talent around him will be more of the focal point of the offense rather then him. So basically IT will be expecting a brinks truck full of millions for what he did last year and have the excuse of his hip injury to lean on for why he doesnt replicate last years success.

Kyrie will be set into Brads system, he will not be given the keys to the offense like most think he will especially when Brads guy Gordon Hayward will be the central focus on offense. We will see alot of Kyrie bringing the ball up n looking for an open Gordon or Brown to drive the basket with Al Horford being the clean up guy. Kyrie will be a big part of the offense but he will be working with ina system that actually includes drawn up plays by Brad Stevens, he wont be given the ball n told to save the day by creating his own shot.

Another thing to consider is that LA will not be good at all this year. When Ball and Lopez is their two best players and their big #2 pick Ingram hasnt had a meaningful nba basket yet, dont expect them to be a dead last lottery threat but they will have a good chance to fall within the 2-5 range. So Luka Doncic, DeAndre Ayton, Miles Bridges or Mohammad Bamba is still a strong possibility.

What u have to look at in the end is this

We traded

Pierce, Garnet and Terry (all past their prime)

And got in return

Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Kyrie Irvin (2 years)
And still another 2-5 pick

Thats 5 really good assets for 3 aging over the hill players. Im not complaining...
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 02:45:55 AM by PaulP34 »

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2017, 04:46:33 AM »

Online hpantazo

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I'm a bit tired of the narrative that Kyrie wasn't successful as the man on his team prior to Lebron. How successful was Michael Jordan as the man on his team early in his career? Anthony Davis? Towns who has more help than Kyrie ever had pre Lebron? No players in their first few years lead their teams to the playoffs alone. None.

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2017, 04:50:56 AM »

Offline Somebody

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I'm a bit tired of the narrative that Kyrie wasn't successful as the man on his team prior to Lebron. How successful was Michael Jordan as the man on his team early in his career? Anthony Davis? Towns who has more help than Kyrie ever had pre Lebron? No players in their first few years lead their teams to the playoffs alone. None.
I agree, but with this trade Kyrie is pressured to put up numbers akin to Harden this season to even justify the package. Hope he does.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2017, 06:25:34 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Thomas was already able to put 20ppg on the board as early as 24. He had an above-average season last year, but good luck if you think that he'll score 30ppg season in and season out for the rest of his career.

That's not what I think, but good luck if you think putting up empty stats as the 2nd best player for the worst franchise in sports is the same thing as being the 2nd best player on a championship team.
2023 Non-Active / Non-NBA75 Fantasy Draft, ChiBulls:

PG: Deron Williams 07-08 / M.R. Richardson 80-81 / J. Wall 16-17
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PF: Larry Nance Sr 91-92 / Blake Griffin 13-14
C: Bob Lanier 76-77 / Brad Daugherty 92-93 / M. Camby 06-07

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2017, 06:29:55 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...

Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.

Even Durant did. His D has been leaps and bounds better for at least the last 2 years- he made himself a legit 2-way terror a la Lebron in his early Heat years.
2023 Non-Active / Non-NBA75 Fantasy Draft, ChiBulls:

PG: Deron Williams 07-08 / M.R. Richardson 80-81 / J. Wall 16-17
SG: David Thompson 77-78 / Hersey Hawkins 96-97
SF: Tracy McGrady 02-03 / Tayshaun Prince 06-07
PF: Larry Nance Sr 91-92 / Blake Griffin 13-14
C: Bob Lanier 76-77 / Brad Daugherty 92-93 / M. Camby 06-07