Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star

The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.

Nice list... Forgot hr won the 3 pt contest and even mvp of an all star game

The guy is a winner

Bring us banner 18 Kyrie

yeah but the OP said he was not good enough! forget all those facts in that list! Let's MELT and panic!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[mctyson]

His lack of all-round game makes it impossible for him to positively effect the outcome of a game when he isn't scoring.

You are entitled to your opinion on Kyrie, and maybe you are right.  But the statement above could just as easily apply to Isaiah Thomas.

Once you accept that IT and Kyrie are at least equivalent in productivity, but that Kyrie is 4 years younger than IT, under contract longer and at a more reasonable price, you see why they had to give up more than just IT to get him (that doesn't include the fact that they had to add Crowder just for salary matching).  And for the team, that means that the production will not drop that dramatically, even if Kyrie is worse under Stevens and without Lebron.

We can debate whether they gave up too much.  I am still not a fan of the trade strictly because of the Brooklyn pick, given that there is a good chance that is a top-3 pick.  But I have thought about it and am no longer as opposed to it as I was initially, because IT is likely going to the highest bidder come free agency and that was not going to be Boston.  So Danny had to trade him regardless, and he got a younger version of him (basketball-wise) under contract longer.

[mctyson]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie

This is a huge Straw Man and you know it. 

If you want to be against the trade of IT, Crowder, the BK pick, and Zizic for Kyrie, that is fine.  Like I said in a post above, those people very much against this trade may be correct in the long run.  That's what makes this interesting, at least.

But stop with the fallacies that a similar or cheaper package would have netted George, or someone like him for example.  We have no idea if these guys were ever truly available to Boston and what the price truly was, if they were. 

[kozlodoev]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie

Not sure what's odd about it. Pretty sure it's a timing consideration. He chose to keep cap flexibility and sign Hayward instead of trading for any of those guys. Irving wasn't supposed to be available so it's not like he turned down George and Butler to trade for Irving.

[RockinRyA]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie, who:

* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.

We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter).  It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden...  I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.

Cousins, probably, but I get the reason why they passed. Afterall they are the ones who is gonna handle the team, not you.
Butler, no. Don't want an inefficient guy(just check his FG% against us in the playoffs who cannot shoot and throws teammates under the bus.
George, would love him in Green, but the contract was risky.


I dont like the trade, I think we gave up a little too much for the present. We also traded a guy who wanted to win and wanted to be with us vs a team who wanted out despite winning.

However, you fail to factor in, that this probably a better move for us in the future, having Kyrie at 28 yrs maxed is a lot better than having IT at 31 maxed.

[Greyman]

We will see what happens. I imagine Kyrie, with Smart beside him locking down opposition PGs and providing assists, and Kyrie doing what Kyrie does. Brown and Tatum will keep opposition teams honest and probably show more than regular bench players.

The goal is to beat GSW, I am not sure that the Celtic's roster does that with Kyrie. I do believe though that the team is closer than it was last season and we haven't blown the future, what a squad for the next few seasons.

My original gut response to the trade was that we gave up too much. I would have loved to see IT win a championship in green and so on. Now I look at the roster and believe that if Brown and Tatum can add something that we expect of them, Kyrie could push the Celtics past the Cavs and who knows what happens beyond that.

There is a lot of speculation but I trust coach Stevens and Kyrie wants to win. What a ride this season should be.

[Celtics4ever]

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I think almost the same things can be said of IT, his defense is not good.    He was traded for peanuts to us because GM's didn't think he could play in the league, and he has been injured with the hip.

Are you trying to argue for or against Kyrie or comparing him with IT.

* Irving has played clutch at the highest level of the game. 

* We get a few more years before the brinks truck

I love IT and he gave his all for us but people seem to forget that his game had a lot of warts too.

[Roy H.]

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I think almost the same things can be said of IT, his defense is not good.    He was traded for peanuts to us because GM's didn't think he could play in the league, and he has been injured with the hip.

Are you trying to argue for or against Kyrie or comparing him with IT.

* Irving has played clutch at the highest level of the game. 

* We get a few more years before the brinks truck

I love IT and he gave his all for us but people seem to forget that his game had a lot of warts too.

I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. Kyrie is a great scorer, but he has the same deficiencies in his game that IT had, plus a few more intangible concerns.

[Dino Pitino]

I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick.

The difference between 2016-17 IT and Kyrie may not be worth it. But the difference between 2017-18-and-beyond IT and Kyrie is. Because present and future IT has a ****** up hip. The difference between them last year is rendered irrelevant by that hip.

[trickybilly]

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I think almost the same things can be said of IT, his defense is not good.    He was traded for peanuts to us because GM's didn't think he could play in the league, and he has been injured with the hip.

Are you trying to argue for or against Kyrie or comparing him with IT.

* Irving has played clutch at the highest level of the game. 

* We get a few more years before the brinks truck

I love IT and he gave his all for us but people seem to forget that his game had a lot of warts too.

I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. Kyrie is a great scorer, but he has the same deficiencies in his game that IT had, plus a few more intangible concerns.

If the pick lands at 6, he is absolutely worth the difference.

For what it's worth, IMHO here's a list of teams worse than BKN :

Atlanta
Bulls
Magic
Indy
Sacto
Lakers
Dallas

[smokeablount]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie

Not sure what's odd about it. Pretty sure it's a timing consideration. He chose to keep cap flexibility and sign Hayward instead of trading for any of those guys. Irving wasn't supposed to be available so it's not like he turned down George and Butler to trade for Irving.

While I disagree with Koz quite a bit I think he hit the nail on the head here, and in addition to this point, by all accounts all the other stars available who went for less would have cost at least what Kyrie cost, except Jimmy Butler because the Bulls wanted a pick this year.  But Danny loves Tatum, wouldn't even trade him for Kyrie, so he wouldn't trade him for Butler either. 

In fact, if you write IT off since we wouldn't resign him, the other stars might have actually cost more than Kyrie because instead of asking for a guy we were gonna let walk anyway, by all accounts they were asking for Brooklyn 18, Smart, Crowder, maybe even Brown of LA pick.  By all accounts teams were asking double of us what they ended up with.  So to me, you can't compare what those teams got with what the Cavs got.  The playing field isn't level.

[Kuberski33]

Anyone catch Simmons podcast this week with Kevin Durant?  Durant thinks Boston's the best place for Irving to be and thinks Ainge made a great trade.

[Jon]

I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.

[TheReaLPuba]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie, who:

* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.

We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter).  It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden...  I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.

Well said. 100% agree.

I wouldn't have traded the Brooklyn pick straight up for Irving. It's going to be a top 3 pick at minimum.

I would have waited 3-5 years for Bagley to come into his own because he projects to be the best two way big since KG and a legit superstar.

Irving is a great great great GREAT scorer. But his lack of defense and vision is just glaring.

Plus he wants to be "the man" but in 2-3 years Tatum will be the best player on this team and Kyrie will once again gripe that he isn't "the man".

The drop off (in production) from Irving to IT isn't that big IMO. And IT has shown he can carry a team AND pass the ball. For being 5'9 his court awareness is impeccable.

Plus IT has shown he has loads of heart. That isn't something you can quantify and is rare to find in athletes today.

I honestly thought Ainge was smarter than this.

[jambr380]

I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.

I have been a broken record saying the same thing, basically that the trade is in two parts:

Kyrie for IT, Crowder, and Zizic for 17-18
Kyrie for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick for 18-19 and beyond

It is also driving me crazy that people think we could have gotten a player like Butler for less. Chicago surely wanted the BKN pick, along with AB and Crowder. We would then be stuck with IT/Butler/Horford (no BKN pick) for the future, rather than Kyrie/Hayward/Horford - it seems like a no-brainer to me.

For these reasons, along with age and contract concerns, I do not think Kyrie has to elevate his game to a 'transcendent' level. I think he should improve slightly now that he is out of Lebron's shadow, but I am perfectly happy switching out IT and Butler for Kyrie and Hayward.