Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...

[Fafnir]

Good thread.

This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. 

Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.

Kyrie's AST% was in the 30's before James got to Cleveland.  In fact, Irving's career best is better than Thomas' career best and Irving's 2nd best is tied with Thomas' career best.  I don't really get this notion that Thomas is such a better facilitator than Irving is.  Even playing with Lebron James the last 3 years, Irving's career averages are still better than Thomas when it comes to apg and AST% (they are very close, but Irving has the slight edge).

Assist percentage is not the same as moving the ball and facilitating team offense. Which is rather important for a PG.

Its not even a good proxy. Isaiah very much improved in that aspect of the game during his stay in Boston. Meanwhile Kyrie stayed an iso machine the last few years with LBJ.

[Androslav]

If a thrown toy like Jordan Crawford had rehabilitated his value, under CBS, to bring back a 2nd rounder.
Then an ring and gold adorned olympian entering his prime is about to make some serious ... olive oil.
Brad eyes are lit and so are mine.
Also, Kyries favoured enemy is our biggest obstacle to the finals, that is very convinient IMO.

[GreenEnvy]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie, who:

* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.

We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter).  It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden...  I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.

That's what I don't understand, how people on here think we got Kawhi or Curry. We got a great basketball player yes, but we also gave up a great one, and some.

Before Kyrie became available, and before he "tore our hearts out" in the playoffs, it was LeBron that we were scared of. It was Kevin Love crushing us with his three point barrage. All of a sudden, Kyrie is top-5 because we landed him.

We were also hearing how the Lakers were going to sniff the playoffs, but we still had the Nets pick! Now post-trade it's the Nets are gonna be good and the Lakers can't handle that tough west.

I truly believe people here would have thrown in the Lakers pick or Tatum just to say we got a normal sized PG who is only 25.

The price was pretty outrageous considering we could have paired IT with someone like Butler AND Fultz.

If he was willing to blow up the team (when only 4 players come back, that's gutting) and give away his best assets (the 2017 Nets swap AND the unprotected rights to 2018), he could have gotten more than Irving, Tatum, Morris and the Lakers/Kings pick.

Whatever. We still have a pretty great team and future, it's just Ainge pretty much depleted our depth and we have very few assets remaining. The Clippers pick may not convey. The Grizz pick won't be that good. Who knows what will happen with that Lakers/Kings pick with all the protections.

Ainge had a "fireworks" signing in July, now a "fireworks" trade in August. Maybe he has one more in him this offseason, who knows. But until that happens, meh.

[RJ87]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie, who:

* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.

We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter).  It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden...  I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.

From all accounts, Boogie was never an option because of his character concerns - and that seemed to be true for a lot of teams outside of the Celtics.

Could we have gotten Paul George? The further removed from that deal we get, the more I'm convinced Indy just didn't want to trade him within the Eastern Conference. They got a crappy deal in the end and walked away from a significantly better deal from Cleveland/Denver. And I genuinely think Ainge would've pulled the trigger after Hayward committed but it takes two to tango.

I don't know why we don't go harder after Jimmy Butler, I'm 100% with you there.

The story about him not talking with his teammates I take with a huge grain of salt. It's always suspect to me that these stories leak after a player requests a trade or is traded. I'm sure he's had his issues, you'd be hard pressed to find a player in this league who hasn't but that doesn't mean he's a cancer - reports can be blown out of proportion or falsified. Look no further than Broussard claiming IT wasn't liked by Boston teammates. When CP3 got traded to Houston, media rehashed his reported issues with Blake and DJ, and questioned his relationship with Doc. Let Chicago media tell it, Jimmy Butler was a diva. The whole point of "sources" is to control the narrative.

As far as the value of the deal compared to deals historically, hindsight is 20/20. At the time CP3 was traded to the Clippers, that deal looked good on paper: Eric Gordon (at the time, many considered a future All-Star), Chris Kaman (a starting caliber big), Al-Farouq Aminu (lottery selected player with upside on a rookie deal), and the Minnesota Timberwolves' unprotected first round pick in the 2012 draft. That's good value for a guy who wanted out and had the ability to opt out & leave in free agency... Ray Allen was 32 years old and still fetched a top 5 draft pick and Delonte West... Carmelo Anthony pretty much cost the Knicks most of their starting lineup save for Amar'e Stoudemire. Value is hard to quantify in these situations.

Look at it from the other perspective: IT can step in and play Kyrie's role, but what's health looking like coming off of a significant hip injury? Do you pony up $30m+ for him at his size going into his 30's? Does he even want to stay if Lebron bolts? Jae Crowder is a nice player, but he is a role player (and for us, at a position where we just added a high priced free agent and have two high lottery selections vying for playing time). He's not sustaining them if Lebron leaves. For now, I'll file Zizic under "throw in" - he could develop into a nice player but he looked overmatched in summer league. The pick hurts, but it's the only sure thing Cleveland is getting in the deal that could be a real long term piece for them.

[Moranis]

Good thread.

This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. 

Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.

Kyrie's AST% was in the 30's before James got to Cleveland.  In fact, Irving's career best is better than Thomas' career best and Irving's 2nd best is tied with Thomas' career best.  I don't really get this notion that Thomas is such a better facilitator than Irving is.  Even playing with Lebron James the last 3 years, Irving's career averages are still better than Thomas when it comes to apg and AST% (they are very close, but Irving has the slight edge).

Assist percentage is not the same as moving the ball and facilitating team offense. Which is rather important for a PG.

Its not even a good proxy. Isaiah very much improved in that aspect of the game during his stay in Boston. Meanwhile Kyrie stayed an iso machine the last few years with LBJ.

and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well.  Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%.  There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.

[Fafnir]

and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well.  Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%.  There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.

What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.

FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.

[Moranis]

and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well.  Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%.  There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.

What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.

FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.

Who is the ISO machine?  The one with the higher USG or the one with the lower USG? 

[BostonClamCrowdah]

Lol at OP

[td450]

At the core of this trade was moving on from IT. We could have used that pick and Crowder to get other players, but we needed to move IT specifically and replace his production.

Ainge had decided the franchise wasn't willing to pay him enough to make him happy, so there was no way that looming contract was going to work out. As much as we love IT, the market for him under these circumstance wasn't very good.

We all rightfully love IT as fans, but we were heading in an unresolvable direction with him and this was the best way out that Ainge could find.

[Rosco917]

Offensively between IT and Irving is a wash. IT wasn't a great or willing passer either. Both players are great scorers, and nowhere near the classic pass first PG.

When we get to the subject of defense...you're right, Irving is a lazy defender, with poor technique. But he CAN be left alone with his defensive assignment, with the chance of a fair outcome.

Where IT is the most useless defender in the NBA due to his size, the game is played over his head. EVERYtime he is on defense, he's looking for where his help will come from. He's helpless on D.

I liked Crowder, but if your investing in young player, you need to allow them to grow and play the game.

The Nets pick was necessary because IT has a hip injury that could be serious, if IT were already signed to the long term "Brinks Truck" contract, this deal would never have been made because of the hip. The Cavs are surely thinking if he can't play this year because of the hip, he's a Free agent next year anyway.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Lol at OP

yup

[snively]

and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well.  Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%.  There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.

What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.

FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.

Who is the ISO machine?  The one with the higher USG or the one with the lower USG? 

Usage does not equal iso. It's possessions consumed. Irving had significantly more iso possessions than IT last year.

[mmmmm]

and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well.  Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%.  There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.

What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.

FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.

Who is the ISO machine?  The one with the higher USG or the one with the lower USG?

The ISO machine is the player who ran Isolation as 21% of his offensive plays.  The one who ran them 9% of the time (though at identical efficiency) is not.

[jambr380]

I'm surprised to see the same sentiments from several great posters.

Cleveland did this deal to compete this year and rebuild next year and the Celtics were perfect partners to provide them with what they needed. Danny clearly did not want to re-sign IT after this season and I highly doubt Cleveland does either. If they somehow convince Lebron to stay, there is NO WAY they can pay IT $30M/yr. They are already in the luxury tax. Adding $20M-25M to the luxury tax and being repeaters will absolutely slaughter them. If Lebron leaves and Cleveland rebuilds, IT is probably not a part of the equation.

The Celtics are just replacing IT (and Crowder) a year early with Irving and then essentially trading Crowder, Zizic, and BKN '18 for Irving next year. I agree that the price was steep and I could have lived with the deal not happening, but IT is barely an asset in this trade to CLE. Frankly I think he is the 3rd most important piece in the deal.

[Rosco917]

In a few years when they've all grown up at the same time, we'll be in line to be in the finals every year.

In a few years when Brown is a 2 way NBA stud, and Tatum is looking more and more like a young Paul Pierce, and Kyrie is still only 27 and simply being Kyrie, Hayward will still be is only 29. Throw in a young center. BOOM.

You'll see the forest through the tree's