Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...

[Celtics4ever]

Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...

Neither was IT.... if we are honest about things.

[Greyman]

My initial feeling on this trade was that Cleveland got the better of it. I especially hated losing the Nets 2018 pick and I had really wanted to see what Zizic could do in the NBA in green. So much of the value of this deal though will only be known after we see what the Celtics (and Cavs) do in the next few seasons.

To compete with GSW now or in the next few years, DA has probably pulled the right reign. If you wanted to be in the ECF and lose to GSW and hope to win a title in 2020 you don't make this trade and hope you find a point guard to replace IT in the draft or in free agency.

Irving becomes available and you have to choose (because KI is an upgrade and a special talent, as much as I love IT)  are Brown and Tatum ready to step up? Can Smart be the ying to Kyrie's yang and all the other answers to the question 'can we be a real contender'?

I mention Smart because, with AB gone, he is the player who I think DA and BS had in mind to make Kyrie work with the current roster.

DA has given the Celtics the best roster he could to compete with the GSW now and over the next few seasons. He has maintained a roster that can improve and he still has some assets (though I still hate hate losing the Nets 2018 pick, go the NETS!)

Managing an NBA franchise is a very tricky business. DA has gone for the lets compete now option over the lets keep building and wait for GSW to run out of steam option. He has faith in his coach, which I think is justified, Brad Stevens could lead this team to a championship sooner than later. And he has gone down the Celtics path, the Celtics have the best record in the NBA for a reason.

I am going to watch my box set of the history of the Celtics, in the hope that I will have to update it next year to include another championship. Lets go Celtics!

[smokeablount]

This is being spun into the coup of the century by some on here. Danny got a good player. Danny gave up a lot for said player. If Isaiah is fully healthy (and has another MVP-caliber campaign) and the Nets are the worst team in the league again, this was a terrible deal. If Isaiah's hip is never the same and the pick lands around #10, it was a good deal.

Even if Isaiah reverts to being as good as he was two seasons ago, and the Nets pick ends up being #5-6, this deal is still probably slanted heavily in our favor.

I'm inclined to agree with this, though I'd feel better if it was more like #7-8, but I'm nitpicking.

[Big333223]

I'm sure a lot will scoff at this, and maybe rightly so since All Star games are meaningless, but I have always thought it was a very impressive sign that Irving won the All Star game MVP at the age of 21. As meaningless as those contests are, Irving showed up to a game with only the best talent in the league at a very young age and outplayed them all. It's no guarantee of success but I do think it speaks to his potential.

I'm optimistic Stevens can unleash that potential.

[Moranis]

It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for. 

Instead, we get Kyrie, who:

* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);

* Is injury prone;

* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;

* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.

I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.

We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter).  It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden...  I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.

to be fair Danny didn't think he could acquire those other guys and still have the room to land Hayward.  I think Danny was probably wrong about George, but he certainly wasn't wrong about the other players.

[Ed Hollison]

Is Irving good enough? I'm not even sure this is the right question.

Irving is not going to be playing in the Finals by himself. This is not Cleveland pre-Lebron. He's on a team with one of the best wings in the league (Hayward), one of the best do-it-all big men in the league (Horford), one of the best coaches in the league (Stevens), a good bench and a boatload of young talent.

Of course he's good enough to win a title here. He doesn't have to be Russell, Bird, or Havlichek to be good enough.

Another thing to keep in mind... He can be an adequate defender, which would be a big leap from what IT was giving us (and yes, I was a huge IT guy). If you're a C's fan and you're being honest with yourself, you'll admit that there were plenty of games when the team was getting killed defensively with IT on the floor, and they needed IT's 4th quarter heroics just to repair the damage. Irving isn't exactly Joe Dumars on defense, but I expect the Celtics to take a major step forward defensively this season, even without Bradley and Crowder.

[Fafnir]

Good thread.

This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. 

Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.

[incoherent]

2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star

The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.

[Dino Pitino]

Up until now he hasn't been good enough, great enough. But I have a feeling management is going to task him with making a leap to Hardenville but with better defense.

[Moranis]

Good thread.

This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. 

Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.

Kyrie's AST% was in the 30's before James got to Cleveland.  In fact, Irving's career best is better than Thomas' career best and Irving's 2nd best is tied with Thomas' career best.  I don't really get this notion that Thomas is such a better facilitator than Irving is.  Even playing with Lebron James the last 3 years, Irving's career averages are still better than Thomas when it comes to apg and AST% (they are very close, but Irving has the slight edge).

[cltc5]

Kyrie makes us better.  We get a guy that can do all the things IT did without having to be the bulk of the offense.  How do you develop a team when one guy demands to be the show?  How do you help mature tatum and brown when they are on the bench or watching IT take over.  What's Hayward do when IT decides he wants to drive the lane and fumble away the ball bwcause he has to prove he's legit? 

IT-  a small pg that hasn't shown up much in the playoffs, coming off a hip injury, who plays with wreckless abandon, approaching 30, and commands the ball.  Is gonna stifle young talent development like rozier/smart.No thanks

Crowder-good contract for a player that has declined in productivity since his injury.  Is gonna stifle young talent like Tatum and brown.

Zizic-played lights out and Europe and slept  his way through summer league.  He was picked late in the 1st round.  He's a dime a dozen in a league where his position is phasing out.

The Brooklyn pick-  might be high, might be low.  Might get a good player-might not-crapshoot-who cares.  We have young developing talent at all positions with assets to trade or move up if necessary.

We have a great young core and we've improved as a team.  Which really is what matters

[footey]

Danny obviously really, really loves Kyrie.

Even more than IT, obviously.  He was ahead of the curve on his judgment of him.

[Tr1boy]

2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star

The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.

Nice list... Forgot hr won the 3 pt contest and even mvp of an all star game

The guy is a winner

Bring us banner 18 Kyrie

[Tr1boy]

Outside of AB ... And even AB struggled against him in the playoffs....who can guard Kyrie 1 on 1?

Unlike the little guy, kyrie does not need screens or picks to score buckets...

Love the fight he brings on the court... If you go on a 10-0 run...he can stop it and will counterattack

Jayson Tatum gets a staredown from that little punk Donovon Mitchell, Kyrie will attack him at will

Cant wait for the season to start

[Vermont Green]

Who knows if he will turn out to be good enough plus everyone has a different measure of how good good enough needs to be.

How about looking at it this way.  Where does Irving fit in with the following group of potential comparable elite guards (no particular order):

Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Wall
Thomas
Paul

I don't think I am missing anyone.  If you could trade Irving straight up for any of these, would you?  I feel Irving is in the mix with any of these guys.  It could be argued that IT is as well.  IT had one season that matches pretty much any single season by any of these guys have had (exception maybe Westbrook with the Triple-Double season).

If this was a gymnastics completion, IT would have done all the tricks but loses some points due to his size, his expiring contract, and now his hip  Age could be argued too 28 is not old by any measure.  Not sure these "deductions" are fair, but I think it is reality.  So my conclusion is that yes, Kyrie is good enough, right there with any other guard in the league.  That is easy.  The harder question is why isn't IT good enough too?

Now did we give up too much?  Maybe, but that is a different discussion than is Kyrie good enough.