Author Topic: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade  (Read 1861 times)

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Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2017, 10:43:25 PM »

Offline JBcat

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The fact that after this season we would have had to sign IT to a $30m max extension, which would have left is with about $85m worth of cap space committed to the trio of Thomas, Hayward and Horford - a trio that simply is not good enough to forge a contender.  With that trio under contract we'd have had zero cap flexibility for the next 3-4 years and would never get past the ECF.

Kyrie on the other hand is locked in to around $18m over the next 2-3 years, which is much more flexible then the ~$30m we'd be paying Thomas, and that $12M or so saving may be enough to allow is a bit of flexibility to add other talent - in trades at the very least.

Kyrie is already a slightly better overall player then Thomas is and, at 25 years of age, he still has room to improve.  The fact that he's 6'4" and that his game is more dependant on skill than athleticism, means that his game should age well...as opposed to Thomas who will likely drop off a cliff as soon as he starts losing his athleticism - and at 28, will likely start happening in the next 1-3 years).    By that time Kyrie will only just be reaching his prime years and should be at his best...

That's assuming IT even sticks aound, Cleveland may well elect not to re-sign him.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Though I agree with almost everything you wrote, I don't think it is a sure thing Thomas will get the max. He definitely very much wants it, but I wonder if any team would be crazy enough to give it to him considering he will be 29 next year. If he repeats the same year he had last season and shows recovery from the hip, maybe he could get something like 4yr/100 from a bad team. A good, well-run team would probably not go over 3 years with any offer, with the AAV being a little higher.

Now that he's on the Cavs, maybe LeBron will give his numbers a little boost. I still think that it will be hard for him to stay fresh an entire year, however, especially now that LeBron has to pace himself as well.

Can you name me an NBA player from the past 10 years who has:

* Finished top 3 in scoring
* Made an All-Star team
* Led his team to a #1 seed in the regular season
* Led his team to the conference finals

All in the same year...and then didn't get a max contract after that?

I honestly can't think of anybody who has even finished top 5 in scoring and not gotten a max afterwards. 

There are going to be teams out there who are desperate for a go-to scorer who can cdominate fourth quarters and lose out games - those teams will be willing to pay max money for a guy like Thomas.  If that team happens to also have a need for a PG (or primary ball handler) then that will only solidify their desire to do so.

Not every team will pay max money for Thomas, but many will. 

Look at the Celtics.  Danny Ainge signed to fringe all-stars (Hayward and Horford) and gave max contracts to both of them.  One of those guys was a 30 year old "jack of all trades, master of none" super role player.  The other is an somewhat one dimensional player who is very good on offense but nothing particularly special at anything else.

I would give a max to Thomas before I'd give one to Horford.  I'd potentially even give one to Thomas before I'd give one to Hayward - close call, but I'd probably lean towards Hayward.

Ok I'll play this game.  If my math is right roughly 5 times are projected to have max cap space next year the Hawks, Mavericks, Lakers, Bulls, and 76rs.  So if the Cavs don't max Thomas which of these teams would consider maxing Thomas?  76rs maybe?  Lakers?  Diving deeper if the Cavs don't max Thomas I have a hard time seeing another team maxing Thomas especially in a deep PG heavy league.


Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2017, 10:47:32 PM »

Offline Fred Roberts

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Positive news: Stevens made some guy named Crawford player of the week, so hot he returned a1st rounder from, I believe, the Warriors.

He made a 5'9" 6th man that no one really wanted into an MVP candidate. Max caliber guy.

Kyrie is in another stratosphere .... with untapped upside. Danny knows. Brad signed off. He's finally got true talent to work with.

Watch. Stop whining.

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 11:24:18 PM »

Offline saltlover

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The fact that after this season we would have had to sign IT to a $30m max extension, which would have left is with about $85m worth of cap space committed to the trio of Thomas, Hayward and Horford - a trio that simply is not good enough to forge a contender.  With that trio under contract we'd have had zero cap flexibility for the next 3-4 years and would never get past the ECF.

Kyrie on the other hand is locked in to around $18m over the next 2-3 years, which is much more flexible then the ~$30m we'd be paying Thomas, and that $12M or so saving may be enough to allow is a bit of flexibility to add other talent - in trades at the very least.

Kyrie is already a slightly better overall player then Thomas is and, at 25 years of age, he still has room to improve.  The fact that he's 6'4" and that his game is more dependant on skill than athleticism, means that his game should age well...as opposed to Thomas who will likely drop off a cliff as soon as he starts losing his athleticism - and at 28, will likely start happening in the next 1-3 years).    By that time Kyrie will only just be reaching his prime years and should be at his best...

That's assuming IT even sticks aound, Cleveland may well elect not to re-sign him.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Though I agree with almost everything you wrote, I don't think it is a sure thing Thomas will get the max. He definitely very much wants it, but I wonder if any team would be crazy enough to give it to him considering he will be 29 next year. If he repeats the same year he had last season and shows recovery from the hip, maybe he could get something like 4yr/100 from a bad team. A good, well-run team would probably not go over 3 years with any offer, with the AAV being a little higher.

Now that he's on the Cavs, maybe LeBron will give his numbers a little boost. I still think that it will be hard for him to stay fresh an entire year, however, especially now that LeBron has to pace himself as well.

Can you name me an NBA player from the past 10 years who has:

* Finished top 3 in scoring
* Made an All-Star team
* Led his team to a #1 seed in the regular season
* Led his team to the conference finals

All in the same year...and then didn't get a max contract after that?

I honestly can't think of anybody who has even finished top 5 in scoring and not gotten a max afterwards. 

There are going to be teams out there who are desperate for a go-to scorer who can cdominate fourth quarters and lose out games - those teams will be willing to pay max money for a guy like Thomas.  If that team happens to also have a need for a PG (or primary ball handler) then that will only solidify their desire to do so.

Not every team will pay max money for Thomas, but many will. 

Look at the Celtics.  Danny Ainge signed to fringe all-stars (Hayward and Horford) and gave max contracts to both of them.  One of those guys was a 30 year old "jack of all trades, master of none" super role player.  The other is an somewhat one dimensional player who is very good on offense but nothing particularly special at anything else.

I would give a max to Thomas before I'd give one to Horford.  I'd potentially even give one to Thomas before I'd give one to Hayward - close call, but I'd probably lean towards Hayward.

Ok I'll play this game.  If my math is right roughly 5 times are projected to have max cap space next year the Hawks, Mavericks, Lakers, Bulls, and 76rs.  So if the Cavs don't max Thomas which of these teams would consider maxing Thomas?  76rs maybe?  Lakers?  Diving deeper if the Cavs don't max Thomas I have a hard time seeing another team maxing Thomas especially in a deep PG heavy league.

The Pacers will also have max room, potentially no PG on their roster, and a desire to be competitive.  I could easily see them as a major suitor for IT.

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2017, 11:57:20 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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The fact that after this season we would have had to sign IT to a $30m max extension, which would have left is with about $85m worth of cap space committed to the trio of Thomas, Hayward and Horford - a trio that simply is not good enough to forge a contender.  With that trio under contract we'd have had zero cap flexibility for the next 3-4 years and would never get past the ECF.

Kyrie on the other hand is locked in to around $18m over the next 2-3 years, which is much more flexible then the ~$30m we'd be paying Thomas, and that $12M or so saving may be enough to allow is a bit of flexibility to add other talent - in trades at the very least.

Kyrie is already a slightly better overall player then Thomas is and, at 25 years of age, he still has room to improve.  The fact that he's 6'4" and that his game is more dependant on skill than athleticism, means that his game should age well...as opposed to Thomas who will likely drop off a cliff as soon as he starts losing his athleticism - and at 28, will likely start happening in the next 1-3 years).    By that time Kyrie will only just be reaching his prime years and should be at his best...

That's assuming IT even sticks aound, Cleveland may well elect not to re-sign him.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Though I agree with almost everything you wrote, I don't think it is a sure thing Thomas will get the max. He definitely very much wants it, but I wonder if any team would be crazy enough to give it to him considering he will be 29 next year. If he repeats the same year he had last season and shows recovery from the hip, maybe he could get something like 4yr/100 from a bad team. A good, well-run team would probably not go over 3 years with any offer, with the AAV being a little higher.

Now that he's on the Cavs, maybe LeBron will give his numbers a little boost. I still think that it will be hard for him to stay fresh an entire year, however, especially now that LeBron has to pace himself as well.

Can you name me an NBA player from the past 10 years who has:

* Finished top 3 in scoring
* Made an All-Star team
* Led his team to a #1 seed in the regular season
* Led his team to the conference finals

All in the same year...and then didn't get a max contract after that?

I honestly can't think of anybody who has even finished top 5 in scoring and not gotten a max afterwards. 

There are going to be teams out there who are desperate for a go-to scorer who can cdominate fourth quarters and lose out games - those teams will be willing to pay max money for a guy like Thomas.  If that team happens to also have a need for a PG (or primary ball handler) then that will only solidify their desire to do so.

Not every team will pay max money for Thomas, but many will. 

Look at the Celtics.  Danny Ainge signed to fringe all-stars (Hayward and Horford) and gave max contracts to both of them.  One of those guys was a 30 year old "jack of all trades, master of none" super role player.  The other is an somewhat one dimensional player who is very good on offense but nothing particularly special at anything else.

I would give a max to Thomas before I'd give one to Horford.  I'd potentially even give one to Thomas before I'd give one to Hayward - close call, but I'd probably lean towards Hayward.

Ok I'll play this game.  If my math is right roughly 5 times are projected to have max cap space next year the Hawks, Mavericks, Lakers, Bulls, and 76rs.  So if the Cavs don't max Thomas which of these teams would consider maxing Thomas?  76rs maybe?  Lakers?  Diving deeper if the Cavs don't max Thomas I have a hard time seeing another team maxing Thomas especially in a deep PG heavy league.

You're forgetting that little move they call the sign-and-trade. 

I'm sure that Cleveland would be more than happy to facilitate one in order to get Isaiah Thomas maxed out (and sent to which ever team wants him) so that they can get a quality asset in return rather than letting him walk for nothing.

What teams might consider this?  Just a couple that come to mind:

1. Pelicans
Holiday is a pretty big guard who is strong defensively, so a Thomas/Holiday backcourt could work nicely if the Pelicans decide that their AD/DMC frontcourt experiment isn't working out.

2. Bulls
Dwyane Wade would probably love a chance to play with Lebron again, and Lebron probably would be open to it as well.  Thomas is a piece the Bulls could build around, and Wade is not.

3. Knicks
Derrick Rose is gone, and the Knicks probably wouldn't mind a star PG to pair with Porzingis - and Cleveland might be quite happy to take Melo off the Knicks' hands in the process.  Knicks fans would love Thomas, and he'd get all the attention there.

4. Indiana
The Pacers have guys like Al Jefferson and Thed Young on relatively large contracts, yet after losing George they are clearly going in to rebuild mode.  Could be fun for them to rebuild aroud Thomas and Turner as a dynamic duo, and adding Jefferson and Young could solidify Cleveland's bench and make them really quite tough. 

5. Lakers
If the Lakers, any point in time, start to question their ability to secure Paul George (or the NBA disallows it somehow due to tampering investigations) then they are almost certainly going to try to find star power elsewhere.  With Lonzo's size, solid outside shooting and pass-first mentality, he could be a very fun compliment to Thomas's pure scorers mentality.  A lineup of Ball, Thomas, Ingram, Randle, Lopez could be pretty fun to watch (reminiscent of the old show time Lakers that Magic seems so eager to create) and Thomas seems like the type who could not only handle, but even THRIVE in the LA spotlight.

Not sure if any/all of these even work, right now I'm just throwing out the first ideas that come to mind.  I'm sure there are many other possibilities out there too. 

If I'm Cleveland, I want to do everything I can to try and convince Lebron to stay.  If doing a S&T of Thomas for somebody like Melo or Wade is enough to keep Lebron in town, then I hazard a guess they'd happily do it. 


Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 12:07:46 AM »

Offline azzenfrost

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To the OP's question. Tatum? Ainge values Tatum more than the BK pick.
I moved the cheese.

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2017, 12:23:38 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Kyrie Irving is 7" taller than Isaiah Thomas.
Kyrie Irving grew to 6'5? Cool, we can just start him at SG down the road.

That would be an 8" difference, Koz (unless IT grew to 5'10"). Thank you for pointing out my fat fingers. I meant 6".
IT grew to 5'10 before he was even drafted. He measured 5'10 1/4 in shoes at the combine.
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Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2017, 12:49:33 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Kyrie Irving is 7" taller than Isaiah Thomas.
Kyrie Irving grew to 6'5? Cool, we can just start him at SG down the road.

That would be an 8" difference, Koz (unless IT grew to 5'10"). Thank you for pointing out my fat fingers. I meant 6".
IT grew to 5'10 before he was even drafted. He measured 5'10 1/4 in shoes at the combine.

This!!!

WHY, on a site filled exclusively with Celtics fans, does nobody seem to get this!?!?!  >:(

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2017, 01:09:50 AM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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C's fans have a very short memory---I still recall how we were absolutely Destroyed/Embarrassed in the ECF series---Everyone saying, how can Danny blow up a team that was the #1 seed--?

Cause we got MURDERED by like 40 freaking points a game---the only game we won, was when IT was out.

Good trade.
Larry Bird was Greater than you think.

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2017, 01:23:21 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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C's fans have a very short memory---I still recall how we were absolutely Destroyed/Embarrassed in the ECF series---Everyone saying, how can Danny blow up a team that was the #1 seed--?

Cause we got MURDERED by like 40 freaking points a game---the only game we won, was when IT was out.

Good trade.

For a team that is infamous for it's heart, that team in the playoffs played with no heart at all.

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2017, 01:30:06 AM »

Offline byennie

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Fans are undervaluing the fact that all of our moves combine, and don't just happen in isolation. Name one other team with:

2 young All-Stars in their mid 20s
Al Horford as a 3rd or 4th option
3 top role players/ enforcers: Smart, Morris, Baynes
Two top prospects on rookie deals
Another potential top-5 pick
A top coach
A clean salary cap

We're building something pretty great for the next 5 years, even if it means making big decisions and pulling the trigger.
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Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2017, 01:34:16 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Fans are undervaluing the fact that all of our moves combine, and don't just happen in isolation. Name one other team with:

2 young All-Stars in their mid 20s
Al Horford as a 3rd or 4th option
3 top role players/ enforcers: Smart, Morris, Baynes
Two top prospects on rookie deals
Another potential top-5 pick
A top coach
A clean salary cap

We're building something pretty great for the next 5 years, even if it means making big decisions and pulling the trigger.

Hayward is 28, so more like late 20s there, but alas I am nitpicking!

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2017, 01:45:26 AM »

Offline Bucketgetter

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Fans are undervaluing the fact that all of our moves combine, and don't just happen in isolation. Name one other team with:

2 young All-Stars in their mid 20s
Al Horford as a 3rd or 4th option
3 top role players/ enforcers: Smart, Morris, Baynes
Two top prospects on rookie deals
Another potential top-5 pick
A top coach
A clean salary cap

We're building something pretty great for the next 5 years, even if it means making big decisions and pulling the trigger.
You could have just stopped your unnecessary list there, no other team has Al Horford.
CB Draft
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Roster: Kawhi Leonard, Damian Lillard, Marvin Williams, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, John Henson, Boban Marjanovic, Rodney Stuckey, Wade Baldwin IV, Taurean Prince, Andrew Nicholson, D.J. Augustin, Jeff Withey, James Jones, Charlie Villanueva, Jordan Adams

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2017, 01:49:37 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Kyrie Irving is 7" taller than Isaiah Thomas.
Kyrie Irving grew to 6'5? Cool, we can just start him at SG down the road.

That would be an 8" difference, Koz (unless IT grew to 5'10"). Thank you for pointing out my fat fingers. I meant 6".
IT grew to 5'10 before he was even drafted. He measured 5'10 1/4 in shoes at the combine.

This!!!

WHY, on a site filled exclusively with Celtics fans, does nobody seem to get this!?!?!  >:(


Did he grow or did he wear these?



He has repeatedly said he is 5'8". 

Lifts crack me up.  Tom Cruise and Sly Stallone wear them all the time.  I remember my dad buying lifts for my nephew when he was about 9 years old and a little short for his age so that he could go on all the rides at Canobe Lake Park and it worked.  I loved it.

Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2017, 02:07:32 AM »

Offline byennie

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Fans are undervaluing the fact that all of our moves combine, and don't just happen in isolation. Name one other team with:

2 young All-Stars in their mid 20s
Al Horford as a 3rd or 4th option
3 top role players/ enforcers: Smart, Morris, Baynes
Two top prospects on rookie deals
Another potential top-5 pick
A top coach
A clean salary cap

We're building something pretty great for the next 5 years, even if it means making big decisions and pulling the trigger.
You could have just stopped your unnecessary list there, no other team has Al Horford.

Brilliant observation. Perhaps "as good as" was implied, and it was a feel-good comment not a scientific analysis?
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Re: What's the One Thing Boston fans are undervaluing with trade
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2017, 02:11:29 AM »

Offline aingeforthree

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Undervaluing the fact that it will be extremely hard to double Irving after our bigs pop out to the top of the 3-pt line & set that Brad Stevens offensive screen. If they do manage to double correctly, somebody named Hayward, Tatum, or Horford will have an easy look.

If they don't double, Irving will be scoring at will. Pick your poison.

Trouble in river city.