Author Topic: Horford next?  (Read 4148 times)

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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2017, 12:06:41 AM »

Offline gouki88

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BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think he is about to flip Horford for Cousins.
it's Davis not cousins. Cousins was flipped for a 2nd rounder
Well that's a bit ridiculous. Cousins was traded for a #6 pick, Tyreke Evans, and a 1st and a 2nd. Hardly a win, but also a bit better than a second rounder.

If we were able to flip Horford for Cousins I'd be ecstatic.
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2017, 12:07:11 AM »

Offline Snakehead

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Al is great for this roster and team.
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 12:32:22 AM »

Offline smokeablount

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Last year, I added an Al Horford autographed jersey to my collection of Celtics memorabilia.  He is the only player in the collection without a title on the Celtics. 

For this reason and this reason alone, we must keep him for the next 7 years, at which time the Celtics will go 82-0 and beat the Shanghai Boom Shakalakas in the NBA finals.
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2017, 12:55:43 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I sure hope so...

Sorry Al, but with Kyrie and Hayward out there we are one legit star away from being a contender.  Horford isn't that guy, but is taking up his cap space. 

14 points and 7 rebounds on 44% or so shooting isn't going to cut it for $30M a year.  Considering we now have Hayward and Morris replacing Crowder and Amir (who both ranks near the bottom of the team in usage rate) I can foresee Horford's touches (and hence, scoring numbers) to drop even further.  I would not be surprised at all if Horford ends up averaging 12 / 6 this year at the center spot.
I can see Horford ending up as a 14/7/6 guy for a couple seasons. Horford may not put up immense stats but he is essential to Stevens system in a ball distribution and pick setting sense and still provides decent rim protection at 1.5 blocks per game. And...he is an essential part of the leadership and locker room pressence this team needs.

That said, Horford and the LA pick for another superstar sounds good to me.

I respectfully disagree on pretty much all counts. 

1. Horford is not an aggressive offensive player by nature, and even last year (when we really needed the extra scoring) he tended to defer to less talented offensive players and preferred to play the role of the facilitator while being generally very lax on offense. I honestly don't think Horford wants that responsibility - I honestly think he prefers to play a complimentary role while the stars get the spotlight, and with two >20 PPG scorers on the team this year I expect he'll be even more willing to defer. 

2.  I do not believe Horford is at all essential to Boston's system. I think he fits very nicely in Boston's system and has the type of "jack of all trades" skill set that makes him a fantastic complimentary player, but I think there are other bigs in the NBA who can also offer a similarly versatile skill set for a lot less then $30M.  I just don't think he contributes enough, consistently enough, to justify the huge chunk of payroll he is soaking up.

3. I'm not really sure where you are seeing his leadership, or locker room presence, that you speak of.  I watched Horford last year, and rarely did I ever see even the slightest indication of him displaying leadership for the team.  He always came across as the quiet guy who just wants to come in, do his job, and go home.  I didn't see him giving pep-talks, or directing guys on the court, or motivating guys during timeouts.  From what I could see it seemed like Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder showed far more leadership then Horford ever did.  In fact that was probably one of my biggest criticisms of Horford last year - if nothing else I at least expected him to be a great veteran leader, and I just never saw it.  He always looked like he was too nice, too laid back, too carefree.  Like Brad Stevens on the court.  I would have liked to see a bit more passion, fire, communication from him. 

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2017, 11:09:03 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I sure hope so...

Sorry Al, but with Kyrie and Hayward out there we are one legit star away from being a contender.  Horford isn't that guy, but is taking up his cap space. 

14 points and 7 rebounds on 44% or so shooting isn't going to cut it for $30M a year.  Considering we now have Hayward and Morris replacing Crowder and Amir (who both ranks near the bottom of the team in usage rate) I can foresee Horford's touches (and hence, scoring numbers) to drop even further.  I would not be surprised at all if Horford ends up averaging 12 / 6 this year at the center spot.
I can see Horford ending up as a 14/7/6 guy for a couple seasons. Horford may not put up immense stats but he is essential to Stevens system in a ball distribution and pick setting sense and still provides decent rim protection at 1.5 blocks per game. And...he is an essential part of the leadership and locker room pressence this team needs.

That said, Horford and the LA pick for another superstar sounds good to me.

I respectfully disagree on pretty much all counts. 

1. Horford is not an aggressive offensive player by nature, and even last year (when we really needed the extra scoring) he tended to defer to less talented offensive players and preferred to play the role of the facilitator while being generally very lax on offense. I honestly don't think Horford wants that responsibility - I honestly think he prefers to play a complimentary role while the stars get the spotlight, and with two >20 PPG scorers on the team this year I expect he'll be even more willing to defer. 

2.  I do not believe Horford is at all essential to Boston's system. I think he fits very nicely in Boston's system and has the type of "jack of all trades" skill set that makes him a fantastic complimentary player, but I think there are other bigs in the NBA who can also offer a similarly versatile skill set for a lot less then $30M.  I just don't think he contributes enough, consistently enough, to justify the huge chunk of payroll he is soaking up.

3. I'm not really sure where you are seeing his leadership, or locker room presence, that you speak of.  I watched Horford last year, and rarely did I ever see even the slightest indication of him displaying leadership for the team.  He always came across as the quiet guy who just wants to come in, do his job, and go home.  I didn't see him giving pep-talks, or directing guys on the court, or motivating guys during timeouts.  From what I could see it seemed like Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder showed far more leadership then Horford ever did.  In fact that was probably one of my biggest criticisms of Horford last year - if nothing else I at least expected him to be a great veteran leader, and I just never saw it.  He always looked like he was too nice, too laid back, too carefree.  Like Brad Stevens on the court.  I would have liked to see a bit more passion, fire, communication from him.
1. Horford doesn't have to be an aggressive scorer. He can just be whst he is and be the third leading scorer on this team like he was last year. We lost Crowder, Olynyk, IT and Bradley That's 70 PPG. We added Hayward, Morris, Baynes, Irving. That's 65 PPG. Horford should have no problem duplicating what he did last year in a more prolific offense. 14/7/5 should be easily attainable. Perhaps more.

2. The money paid to Horford is a sunk cost. It doesn't matter what he is paid or if you think there are others that can do the hat he can do. He is the best passing center in the league and does everything very well. He can even bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense. There's not a lot, if any, bigs in this league that can pass and bring up the ball and start the offense like he can. A player like that is invaluable in Stevens system. Essential even.

3. You aren't in the locker room where I have seen quotes he is a huge influence. On the court he directs players on defense and leads by example. He is a leader. Not in the demonstrative sense but in the wise, do as I do sense.

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2017, 11:26:06 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think he is about to flip Horford for Cousins.
it's Davis not cousins. Cousins was flipped for a 2nd rounder
Well that's a bit ridiculous. Cousins was traded for a #6 pick, Tyreke Evans, and a 1st and a 2nd. Hardly a win, but also a bit better than a second rounder.

If we were able to flip Horford for Cousins I'd be ecstatic.
Silly.  If Ainge wanted Cousins he would already have him AND Horford.

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2017, 11:28:08 AM »

Offline jaketwice

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BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think he is about to flip Horford for Cousins.
it's Davis not cousins. Cousins was flipped for a 2nd rounder
Well that's a bit ridiculous. Cousins was traded for a #6 pick, Tyreke Evans, and a 1st and a 2nd. Hardly a win, but also a bit better than a second rounder.

If we were able to flip Horford for Cousins I'd be ecstatic.

I wouldn't. Cousins is a jerk, and Horford is an all class guy. I don't want Cousins under any circumstances.

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2017, 11:30:49 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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BINGO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think he is about to flip Horford for Cousins.

LOL our team would, in the span of a week, have become monumentally less likable.  My goodness.
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2017, 11:34:44 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I sure hope so...

Sorry Al, but with Kyrie and Hayward out there we are one legit star away from being a contender.  Horford isn't that guy, but is taking up his cap space. 

14 points and 7 rebounds on 44% or so shooting isn't going to cut it for $30M a year.  Considering we now have Hayward and Morris replacing Crowder and Amir (who both ranks near the bottom of the team in usage rate) I can foresee Horford's touches (and hence, scoring numbers) to drop even further.  I would not be surprised at all if Horford ends up averaging 12 / 6 this year at the center spot.
I can see Horford ending up as a 14/7/6 guy for a couple seasons. Horford may not put up immense stats but he is essential to Stevens system in a ball distribution and pick setting sense and still provides decent rim protection at 1.5 blocks per game. And...he is an essential part of the leadership and locker room pressence this team needs.

That said, Horford and the LA pick for another superstar sounds good to me.

I respectfully disagree on pretty much all counts. 

1. Horford is not an aggressive offensive player by nature, and even last year (when we really needed the extra scoring) he tended to defer to less talented offensive players and preferred to play the role of the facilitator while being generally very lax on offense. I honestly don't think Horford wants that responsibility - I honestly think he prefers to play a complimentary role while the stars get the spotlight, and with two >20 PPG scorers on the team this year I expect he'll be even more willing to defer. 

2.  I do not believe Horford is at all essential to Boston's system. I think he fits very nicely in Boston's system and has the type of "jack of all trades" skill set that makes him a fantastic complimentary player, but I think there are other bigs in the NBA who can also offer a similarly versatile skill set for a lot less then $30M.  I just don't think he contributes enough, consistently enough, to justify the huge chunk of payroll he is soaking up.

3. I'm not really sure where you are seeing his leadership, or locker room presence, that you speak of.  I watched Horford last year, and rarely did I ever see even the slightest indication of him displaying leadership for the team.  He always came across as the quiet guy who just wants to come in, do his job, and go home.  I didn't see him giving pep-talks, or directing guys on the court, or motivating guys during timeouts.  From what I could see it seemed like Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder showed far more leadership then Horford ever did.  In fact that was probably one of my biggest criticisms of Horford last year - if nothing else I at least expected him to be a great veteran leader, and I just never saw it.  He always looked like he was too nice, too laid back, too carefree.  Like Brad Stevens on the court.  I would have liked to see a bit more passion, fire, communication from him.
1. Horford doesn't have to be an aggressive scorer. He can just be whst he is and be the third leading scorer on this team like he was last year. We lost Crowder, Olynyk, IT and Bradley That's 70 PPG. We added Hayward, Morris, Baynes, Irving. That's 65 PPG. Horford should have no problem duplicating what he did last year in a more prolific offense. 14/7/5 should be easily attainable. Perhaps more.

2. The money paid to Horford is a sunk cost. It doesn't matter what he is paid or if you think there are others that can do the hat he can do. He is the best passing center in the league and does everything very well. He can even bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense. There's not a lot, if any, bigs in this league that can pass and bring up the ball and start the offense like he can. A player like that is invaluable in Stevens system. Essential even.

3. You aren't in the locker room where I have seen quotes he is a huge influence. On the court he directs players on defense and leads by example. He is a leader. Not in the demonstrative sense but in the wise, do as I do sense.
Adding Tatum, Irving, Morris and Hayward I completely agree that we no longer need Al to go get his own shot.

I remember thinking it was a huge problem last year that our second option in terms of guys who could create for themselves was a Horford post up. We dont have to ask him to do that this year. Now he can continue to set great screens, do great things off ball, move the ball well, hit open shots and take advantage when the defense forgets he can still put the ball in the basket.

I have high hopes also that his maturity and leadership can play an important role in building chemistry for a team with just 4 returning players, only 3 of which can buy a beer.
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2017, 11:42:43 AM »

Offline Granath

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I sure hope so...

Sorry Al, but with Kyrie and Hayward out there we are one legit star away from being a contender.  Horford isn't that guy, but is taking up his cap space. 

14 points and 7 rebounds on 44% or so shooting isn't going to cut it for $30M a year.  Considering we now have Hayward and Morris replacing Crowder and Amir (who both ranks near the bottom of the team in usage rate) I can foresee Horford's touches (and hence, scoring numbers) to drop even further.  I would not be surprised at all if Horford ends up averaging 12 / 6 this year at the center spot.
I can see Horford ending up as a 14/7/6 guy for a couple seasons. Horford may not put up immense stats but he is essential to Stevens system in a ball distribution and pick setting sense and still provides decent rim protection at 1.5 blocks per game. And...he is an essential part of the leadership and locker room pressence this team needs.

That said, Horford and the LA pick for another superstar sounds good to me.

Horford never put up immense stats and frankly I'm shocked as to why many users on CelticsBlog think he needs to do so.

Al's career statistics are pretty consistent with what he produced last year. 14/8.7/3 has been what Horford is good for. He averaged 14/6.8/5 last year because he played further away from the basket than he did in Atlanta. The reduction in scoring was due to a dip in his usage percentage.

If someone thinks Al is overpaid then blame Danny because we got exactly what we should have expected to get. If someone isn't happy, then they should have been b**tching last year when we signed him. I didn't see too much of that at that time so it just seems to me that the folks who complain must not be familiar with Horford's game.

Now I'm with you Nick, I think there's a lot Al does on the court that helps even if it doesn't show up in the box score. He's a facilitator, not a finisher, and some people seem to have a difficult time understanding that. Moreover, Al showed that Boston can attract FAs and without Horford I doubt we get Hayward this year.

As far as moving Horford, I think we ALL know that Danny is willing to move anyone and everyone (though I'm afraid the IT trade was a bridge too far). But Horford was signed as a FA with specific representations made as to his place on this team. That's very different than making a trade for a player. Al CHOSE to come here based on what Danny and Brad said. It would be difficult to trade him now - just one year into his deal - when he's done what was asked of him. It would give pause to any other FAs who might want to think about coming to Boston. It might also fracture the locker room - selling IT's trade to Hayward is difficult enough but moving the two main guys he met before he signed would really make things awkward. So no, I don't think Al's next. At least not this year.
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2017, 11:49:56 AM »

Offline cman88

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Horford really stepped it up in the playoffs though. hes a really good 3rd guy/roleplayer. and is perfect for Brads offense.

The question is, can Hayward be your #2 with Irving being your #1

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2017, 11:57:07 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Horford really stepped it up in the playoffs though. hes a really good 3rd guy/roleplayer. and is perfect for Brads offense.

The question is, can Hayward be your #2 with Irving being your #1
Its so hard to calibrate this due to the presence of Golden State.

I think Irving-Hayward-Horford is terrific, but it is dwarfed by KD-Steph-Klay-Dray
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Re: Horford next?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2017, 12:14:34 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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With this kind of offensive talent around him, his playmaking and pick-and-roll skills, and defensive acumen, Horford is geared up for several years of a Vlade-in-Sacramento role.

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 12:16:55 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I sure hope so...

Sorry Al, but with Kyrie and Hayward out there we are one legit star away from being a contender.  Horford isn't that guy, but is taking up his cap space. 

14 points and 7 rebounds on 44% or so shooting isn't going to cut it for $30M a year.  Considering we now have Hayward and Morris replacing Crowder and Amir (who both ranks near the bottom of the team in usage rate) I can foresee Horford's touches (and hence, scoring numbers) to drop even further.  I would not be surprised at all if Horford ends up averaging 12 / 6 this year at the center spot.
I can see Horford ending up as a 14/7/6 guy for a couple seasons. Horford may not put up immense stats but he is essential to Stevens system in a ball distribution and pick setting sense and still provides decent rim protection at 1.5 blocks per game. And...he is an essential part of the leadership and locker room pressence this team needs.

That said, Horford and the LA pick for another superstar sounds good to me.

I respectfully disagree on pretty much all counts. 

1. Horford is not an aggressive offensive player by nature, and even last year (when we really needed the extra scoring) he tended to defer to less talented offensive players and preferred to play the role of the facilitator while being generally very lax on offense. I honestly don't think Horford wants that responsibility - I honestly think he prefers to play a complimentary role while the stars get the spotlight, and with two >20 PPG scorers on the team this year I expect he'll be even more willing to defer. 

2.  I do not believe Horford is at all essential to Boston's system. I think he fits very nicely in Boston's system and has the type of "jack of all trades" skill set that makes him a fantastic complimentary player, but I think there are other bigs in the NBA who can also offer a similarly versatile skill set for a lot less then $30M.  I just don't think he contributes enough, consistently enough, to justify the huge chunk of payroll he is soaking up.

3. I'm not really sure where you are seeing his leadership, or locker room presence, that you speak of.  I watched Horford last year, and rarely did I ever see even the slightest indication of him displaying leadership for the team.  He always came across as the quiet guy who just wants to come in, do his job, and go home.  I didn't see him giving pep-talks, or directing guys on the court, or motivating guys during timeouts.  From what I could see it seemed like Avery Bradley, Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder showed far more leadership then Horford ever did.  In fact that was probably one of my biggest criticisms of Horford last year - if nothing else I at least expected him to be a great veteran leader, and I just never saw it.  He always looked like he was too nice, too laid back, too carefree.  Like Brad Stevens on the court.  I would have liked to see a bit more passion, fire, communication from him.

Lol who are those guys who can offer similar skillset that Horford offers that's lower than 30m? Realistic pls, not guys like Towns etc.

Re: Horford next?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2017, 12:20:06 PM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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14 points and 7 rebounds on 44% or so shooting isn't going to cut it for $30M a year.

If you just see Horford's value based on numbers, that's all said.