Author Topic: Talk me off the ledge....  (Read 13820 times)

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Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #75 on: August 23, 2017, 10:38:58 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I'm not happy but its not an objectively terrible trade like the Pacers/Bulls ones. Its all down to lottery luck and the Nets if this looks bad, or pretty good.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #76 on: August 23, 2017, 10:49:04 AM »

Offline BaronV

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I don't think nets pick was too much. I look at it as we trade IT and the nets pick for irving. which makes sense because we got the better player.

the other scrubs were throw ins. this team is so much better it's not even funny. with that said it does mean the kids are going to have bigger expectations to make the right plays.

You could almost look at it as the Nets pick and Crowder for Irving.  IT is on the last year of his contract, demanding max money, and is injured going into the season.  While Irving is replacing IT's spot on the roster, if there is a chance IT would miss significant time due to his injury (and reports this week were now saying he is likely to miss the start of the season), then he was essentially salary filler in the deal.  If Ainge wasn't planning to give IT a max contract at the end of this year, not a bad move to trade an injured star and a high draft pick for a healthy, younger star under team control for 2 more years. 

CLE may be looking at IT as insurance for LeBron leaving next year.   If he does, they can can give IT his Brinks truck, and they still have a star player on their roster.  If his injury requires surgery or if Lebron stays, they can just let him walk at the end of the year. 

If the Nets pick ends up being high in the draft AND if that player turns into a superstar, this could end up as a bad trade for the Cs.  Otherwise, we trade an expiring contract of an injured star, a role player who lost his starting spot on the team, a rookie who isn't likely to get playing time, and a potentially high draft pick for a young, borderline superstar.  Given the risk with IT's health and the uncertainty of future draft picks, it seems like a fair deal. 


Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #77 on: August 23, 2017, 10:51:16 AM »

Online BitterJim

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I guess, something to note as well is that while the C's were #1 last season and IT was spectacular....the playoffs proved they were smoke and mirrors. if Rondo was healthy, they likely would've lost to the bulls. they had to have some game 7 heroics to beat the wizards. and then they met the buzzsaw in the cavs and were demolished. Ainge took the gamble of do you trade for the guaranteed superstar now, or put your odds in the BKN-18 pick being a superstar.

is this team better than last year? I would say yes....likely not good enough to unseat the cavs. but could at least make it a series IMO.

I also kind of kept it in the back of my mind to not get attached to anyone on this team. I will miss IT4, but as exciting as the last few years playoff runs have been I knew this is a bridge team for Ainge to get to the next championship

The Celtics beat the Bulls and Wizards.  Look for some moral victories losses if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this team beat the Bulls in 6 games (and no, Rondo is not the difference between the Bulls beating us and losing 4 straight games. His injury doubtless played a role, but so did IT/the team having more time to recover from the shock of IT's sister dieing and Brad changing the gameplan/lineup to play more to our strengths) and the Wizards in 7 (would have been in 6, "they had to have some game [6] heroics to beat the [celtics]")
I'm bitter.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #78 on: August 23, 2017, 11:47:33 AM »

Offline cman88

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I guess, something to note as well is that while the C's were #1 last season and IT was spectacular....the playoffs proved they were smoke and mirrors. if Rondo was healthy, they likely would've lost to the bulls. they had to have some game 7 heroics to beat the wizards. and then they met the buzzsaw in the cavs and were demolished. Ainge took the gamble of do you trade for the guaranteed superstar now, or put your odds in the BKN-18 pick being a superstar.

is this team better than last year? I would say yes....likely not good enough to unseat the cavs. but could at least make it a series IMO.

I also kind of kept it in the back of my mind to not get attached to anyone on this team. I will miss IT4, but as exciting as the last few years playoff runs have been I knew this is a bridge team for Ainge to get to the next championship

The Celtics beat the Bulls and Wizards.  Look for some moral victories losses if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this team beat the Bulls in 6 games (and no, Rondo is not the difference between the Bulls beating us and losing 4 straight games. His injury doubtless played a role, but so did IT/the team having more time to recover from the shock of IT's sister dieing and Brad changing the gameplan/lineup to play more to our strengths) and the Wizards in 7 (would have been in 6, "they had to have some game [6] heroics to beat the [celtics]")

ok, taking that into account, once they met the cavs we saw how far behind them they were.

Don't get me wrong, im pretty melancholy about the whole trade because I love IT4 and he gave boston hope. His addition allowed us to get horford and Hayward.

but are we better equipped to take on the cavs in the eastern conference today if we met them? I would have to say yes.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2017, 11:48:21 AM »

Offline cman88

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I don't get it, just last week fans on this blog were saying IT4 is not worth the max and wanting to trade him for pennies on the dollar. now we trade him for Irving and it is horrible

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #80 on: August 23, 2017, 12:08:02 PM »

Offline Granath

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I don't get it, just last week fans on this blog were saying IT4 is not worth the max and wanting to trade him for pennies on the dollar. now we trade him for Irving and it is horrible

We traded IT for Irving straight up?

That's a different story! Why didn't you tell us? We were all under the impression that we gave up a likely top 3 pick, Crowder and Zizic too! Phew, I'm glad that didn't happen!
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Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #81 on: August 23, 2017, 12:22:35 PM »

Offline Eja117

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If have traded the Brooklyn Pick, Zizic, Crowder and IT for Irving. We will have helped our biggest rival in the east. Given up a chance at a transcendent talent and given them a pick they can use to acquire another star to make them compete with the Warriors or crush us all while destroying our team chemistry... I have never felt this baffled by a trade before, and as much as I trust Ainge in general, this is a flat out awful trade if true.


Lebron is gone my dude. This year is cleveland's last ride.

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I'll believe it when I see it

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #82 on: August 23, 2017, 12:28:58 PM »

Online BitterJim

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I guess, something to note as well is that while the C's were #1 last season and IT was spectacular....the playoffs proved they were smoke and mirrors. if Rondo was healthy, they likely would've lost to the bulls. they had to have some game 7 heroics to beat the wizards. and then they met the buzzsaw in the cavs and were demolished. Ainge took the gamble of do you trade for the guaranteed superstar now, or put your odds in the BKN-18 pick being a superstar.

is this team better than last year? I would say yes....likely not good enough to unseat the cavs. but could at least make it a series IMO.

I also kind of kept it in the back of my mind to not get attached to anyone on this team. I will miss IT4, but as exciting as the last few years playoff runs have been I knew this is a bridge team for Ainge to get to the next championship

The Celtics beat the Bulls and Wizards.  Look for some moral victories losses if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that this team beat the Bulls in 6 games (and no, Rondo is not the difference between the Bulls beating us and losing 4 straight games. His injury doubtless played a role, but so did IT/the team having more time to recover from the shock of IT's sister dieing and Brad changing the gameplan/lineup to play more to our strengths) and the Wizards in 7 (would have been in 6, "they had to have some game [6] heroics to beat the [celtics]")

ok, taking that into account, once they met the cavs we saw how far behind them they were.

Don't get me wrong, im pretty melancholy about the whole trade because I love IT4 and he gave boston hope. His addition allowed us to get horford and Hayward.

but are we better equipped to take on the cavs in the eastern conference today if we met them? I would have to say yes.

Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree that we're a better team now than we were in June.  But it's not because we weren't that good last year or we didn't deserve to make it as far in the playoffs as we did - it's because we added Hayward and Tatum without giving up that much and still have an All Star PG.  It remains to be seen whether we're a better team than we were this time yesterday, but we are 100% a better team than we were a few months ago
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 12:37:50 PM by BitterJim »
I'm bitter.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #83 on: August 23, 2017, 12:36:36 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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So it's not the easiest thing to gather and organize your thoughts on this complex trade, especially without emotion.  At first when I saw the Nets pick was included, and that it was unprotected, I was pretty peeved.  But here is how I would talk you off the ledge:

1) This trade tells me that IT was going to take whoever was going to give him a max, and Danny wasn't going to give it to him.  So I'm going to consider that IT was gone for nothing at the end of the year, and we weren't winning it all with him this year, so for effective purposes I'd remove him from the deal.  You don't have to agree here, but that's my view.

2) With IT factored out, the trade is really 2 role players and a lottery pick for a top 15 player in the NBA.  So far that's a good deal for us, but it will come down to where the pick lands.  If it lands top 2, or even top 5, that'll be tough to swallow.  But if the Bulls, Pacers, Hawks and 2 West teams finish worse and the Nets finish out of the bottom 5 (say #6) and on lottery night they drop another spot or two (say pick #7 or #8) then I think that could be a steal. 

3) IT may be damaged goods now and may have peaked, or will have peaked after 1-2 more years.  Tatum & Jaylen likely won't be in their primes then.  Kyrie likely gets better than he is now, and likely has a bigger year than IT this year if their roles were reversed since he played with Lebron and Love.  Now, both of our top 2 players / all stars are on the timeline of the future of our team, which is Tatum, JB, LA/SAC pick, and the rest.

4) Re: timeline, with the Warriors being what they are we needed to stop straddling the line between the present and the future at some point.  If we stayed the course we could have been a top 5 team for over a decade, but likely never would have been a true contender.  Now if the LA pick lands and we nail it, and our young guys develop, we are likely to be a true contender in 3-4 years when the young guys develop and Kyrie is in his prime.

5) With the money we save next year due to the trade, we should be able to afford to keep Smart if that's what we want to do.  If he doesn't develop good offense next season he should be affordable under the tax, and if he does, he'd be a player worth getting taxed for.

So factoring out IT and looking at the trade as 2 role players and a lottery pick for a top 15 player and cap flexibility, we need to wait a year and see where the pick lands.  Even if the pick is top 2, which seems bad, we'd need to wait to see who pans out.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 12:48:17 PM by smokeablount »
2023 Non-Active / Non-NBA75 Fantasy Draft, ChiBulls:

PG: Deron Williams 07-08 / M.R. Richardson 80-81 / J. Wall 16-17
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PF: Larry Nance Sr 91-92 / Blake Griffin 13-14
C: Bob Lanier 76-77 / Brad Daugherty 92-93 / M. Camby 06-07

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #84 on: August 23, 2017, 12:41:00 PM »

Offline saltlover

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There are only two things that will make me rationalize this trade:

1) Irving really does have Top-5 NBA talent in him, and getting away from LeBron and under the tutelage of Stevens maximizes his production.

2) IT's hip is really that bad.

The second makes me sad to think about, because I like IT too much to hope for anything bad for him.  So hopefully Irving really can be that great.  He's only 25 -- it's not impossible to believe he has MVP-caliber seasons in his future, and he's already proven himself in the Finals.  If he is, then it's a good trade regardless of the price paid, because those players are very rare.

But unless and until Irving is the best player on a title winning Boston team, I'm going to question this deal.  I think Irving is a great player, but I don't know that he's great.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2017, 12:51:13 PM »

Offline aingeforthree

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You're on a ledge ?

Irving > Thomas

Hayward > Bradley

Morris > Crowder

Baynes > every Center on the roster

You should be dancing on the ceiling. Upgrades EVERYWHERE

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2017, 12:58:26 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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There are only two things that will make me rationalize this trade:

1) Irving really does have Top-5 NBA talent in him, and getting away from LeBron and under the tutelage of Stevens maximizes his production.

2) IT's hip is really that bad.

The second makes me sad to think about, because I like IT too much to hope for anything bad for him.  So hopefully Irving really can be that great.  He's only 25 -- it's not impossible to believe he has MVP-caliber seasons in his future, and he's already proven himself in the Finals.  If he is, then it's a good trade regardless of the price paid, because those players are very rare.

But unless and until Irving is the best player on a title winning Boston team, I'm going to question this deal.  I think Irving is a great player, but I don't know that he's great.

This echoes my thoughts exactly.

The onus is on Irving now to prove he is or can be a significant upgrade over Thomas.   And by "significant" he has to be better than Thomas by enough to make up the value of losing the Nets pick, Jae & Zizic. 

If he isn't, then this trade won't look good.
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Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2017, 01:12:50 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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There are only two things that will make me rationalize this trade:

1) Irving really does have Top-5 NBA talent in him, and getting away from LeBron and under the tutelage of Stevens maximizes his production.

2) IT's hip is really that bad.

The second makes me sad to think about, because I like IT too much to hope for anything bad for him.  So hopefully Irving really can be that great.  He's only 25 -- it's not impossible to believe he has MVP-caliber seasons in his future, and he's already proven himself in the Finals.  If he is, then it's a good trade regardless of the price paid, because those players are very rare.

But unless and until Irving is the best player on a title winning Boston team, I'm going to question this deal.  I think Irving is a great player, but I don't know that he's great.
pretty much thinking the same thing.  Including the Brooklyn pick was the overpayment from my viewpoint.  unless IT is only half the player next year that he was last year, we overpaid.  when both are healthy, the difference in production between Kyrie and IT didn't justify including that pick.  Maybe the C's pick next year if being generous but Crowder alone would make up for any talent gap between those 2 players.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #88 on: August 23, 2017, 01:17:39 PM »

Offline jambr380

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There are only two things that will make me rationalize this trade:

1) Irving really does have Top-5 NBA talent in him, and getting away from LeBron and under the tutelage of Stevens maximizes his production.

2) IT's hip is really that bad.

The second makes me sad to think about, because I like IT too much to hope for anything bad for him.  So hopefully Irving really can be that great.  He's only 25 -- it's not impossible to believe he has MVP-caliber seasons in his future, and he's already proven himself in the Finals.  If he is, then it's a good trade regardless of the price paid, because those players are very rare.

But unless and until Irving is the best player on a title winning Boston team, I'm going to question this deal.  I think Irving is a great player, but I don't know that he's great.

This echoes my thoughts exactly.

The onus is on Irving now to prove he is or can be a significant upgrade over Thomas.   And by "significant" he has to be better than Thomas by enough to make up the value of losing the Nets pick, Jae & Zizic

If he isn't, then this trade won't look good.

See, I am choosing to look at this trade in a different way. Assuming Danny wasn't going to re-sign IT and also assuming Irving [deservingly] re-signs with the Cs for the max in two years, I see it as two trades:

For this year only, it is: Irving for IT, Crowder, and Zizic
For 2018 and beyond, it is: Irving for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick

With IT only having one season left and with major doubts about him re-signing (due to age, injury concerns, etc), it is not fair to look at this trade like we are giving up IT as an asset beyond this season. Just like it is not fair to look at the BKN pick as an asset for this season. Luckily Irving is young enough and good enough to cover for both of these 'trades.'

I feel just like everybody else, though - losing that BKN pick hurts and a lot now rests on Irving's shoulders. Hopefully he can prove his value...and also BKN is considerably better than we all think they will be.

Re: Talk me off the ledge....
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2017, 01:21:23 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I should also note that if trading IT for Kyrie was the difference between keeping Smart or letting him go, then he should also be 'included' in this deal (I don't have any idea if this is true).

Of course if DA was just going to let IT walk, then we likely would have kept Smart at any cost.