Author Topic: Tolkein stuff  (Read 596 times)

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Tolkein stuff
« on: August 19, 2017, 04:55:54 PM »

Offline eja117

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In theory the Hobbies section is where we discuss literature. I can't exactly figure a place to put this.

I can't figure out why Radagast didn't fight in the War of the Ring. Does anyone know this per se?

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2017, 08:21:40 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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I've read a lot of Tolkien—the Hobbit, LOTR, Silmarillion, Lost Tales—and I can't recall any explanation of where Radagast was when the War was going down. But my retention isn't always the best! ;D So I might research this, because it is an interesting question.

On a related note, in recent years I've become somewhat fascinated by the lives and fate of the two Blue Wizards, to the point where I've begun writing a novel—fan fiction disguised as a story unrelated to Middle Earth—about what I think the Blue Wizards might've been up to around the time of the War.
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Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2017, 08:51:19 PM »

Offline eja117

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Wow

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2017, 09:16:53 PM »

Offline incoherent

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I think there is a good chance Radagast doesn't even remember where he was during the war of the ring.

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2017, 10:59:55 PM »

Offline Granath

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In theory the Hobbies section is where we discuss literature. I can't exactly figure a place to put this.

I can't figure out why Radagast didn't fight in the War of the Ring. Does anyone know this per se?

It's not that Radagast didn't fight. It's that it's not told whether he fought or not. We know he wasn't at his home of Rhosgobel during the war. It's up to the individual to try to figure out where he might have been during that time.

I figure he was out in the Mirkwood trying to save his animal friends from the battle raging around Lothlorien since his house was near there.
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Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2017, 11:26:58 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The books specifically mention that there are other battles being fought in the war besides the ones in Rohan, Gondor and at the Black Gate.   Specifically it mentions battles being fought to the north and it mentions Galadriel bringing down the ancient fortress of Dol Guldur up in Mirkwood (where Sauron had hidden out as 'the Necromancer' before relocating to Barad Dur in Mordor).   If I recall right, Elrond is also mentioned as engaged in those fronts up north.  It's not stated specifically what Radagast was doing, but it's not an unreasonable assumption that he would have probably been caught up in events in that region of Middle Earth.
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Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 09:40:45 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Specifically it mentions battles being fought to the north and it mentions Galadriel bringing down the ancient fortress of Dol Guldur up in Mirkwood (where Sauron had hidden out as 'the Necromancer' before relocating to Barad Dur in Mordor).

This happened between LOTR and the Hobbit.  BTW

Of all the Istari, Gandalf was most interested in the world of man.  Most of the others failed or did not do their duty.

Quote
Of these five, only Gandalf remained true to his purpose, for Alatar and Pallando were gone into the east, and Radagast paid no heed to the darkness, and Saruman himself became enslaved by the Enemy. For he, after settling in Orthanc, found one of the Palantíri of Fëanor, of which the men of Númenor had been given, and so were brought into Gondor and Arnor by those faithful of Númenor. But now Saruman gazed into that seeing stone of Orthanc, which may have been forgotten when he was given the keys, or held of little value to the Stewards any more than an heirloom, and was ensnared by Sauron, who also had obtained the stone of Minas Ithil, by turning the Orthanc-stone to his, and turned Saruman to evil. For Saruman was the most knowledgeable of the White Council in ring-lore, and he began to search now himself for the One Ring of power, for he wanted to become a Power himself, and rule over Middle-earth in Sauron's place. And he it was who bred orcs with Men and played many other foul parts in the War of the Ring, pressing the Men of Rohan and destroying their sons. But he was ousted, by the Sheperds of the Trees, the Ents, who he had forgotten, for his orcs destroyed their forests and their flocks of trees, and so they came against him, unseen, and they destroyed Isengard, and his army. Afterwards he retreated to the Shire, which he befouled, and was there slain by his twisted servant, and was never seen again. In Orthanc was found the Elendilmir which was lost with Isildur, and so it is guessed that Saruman found the remains which brings into thought terrible things, for who knows what Saruman may have done with Isildur's remains if he did find them?

But Gandalf remained true, as has been said, for his work ever drove the Children against Sauron, who was defeated and vanquished, and so Gandalf alone of the Istari returned to the West with the Ringbearers whom he had loved, most of all the Halflings of the Shire. He it was who took most notice of the Shire and the Hobbits, and he smoked like they did but perfected it and he loved the little people. It was this love that brought him into the friendship of Bilbo Baggins of Bag End who found the One Ring, and so the Ring was destroyed by Bilbo's heir, and Sauron perished.

http://www.theonering.com/reading-room/critical-viewpoints/about-the-istari-an-explanation-of-their-background


These should answer any further  questions

http://www.annalsofarda.dk/Annals-of-Arda/Misc/Misc-TheIstari.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(Middle-earth)

The movies are entertaining but they take quite a few liberties especially in the Hobbit ones, those do not even resemble Tolkien's work at times and are Hollywood.

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 10:08:11 AM »

Offline Granath

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Quote
Specifically it mentions battles being fought to the north and it mentions Galadriel bringing down the ancient fortress of Dol Guldur up in Mirkwood (where Sauron had hidden out as 'the Necromancer' before relocating to Barad Dur in Mordor).

This happened between LOTR and the Hobbit.  BTW

Of all the Istari, Gandalf was most interested in the world of man.  Most of the others failed or did not do their duty.

Quote
Of these five, only Gandalf remained true to his purpose, for Alatar and Pallando were gone into the east, and Radagast paid no heed to the darkness, and Saruman himself became enslaved by the Enemy. For he, after settling in Orthanc, found one of the Palantíri of Fëanor, of which the men of Númenor had been given, and so were brought into Gondor and Arnor by those faithful of Númenor. But now Saruman gazed into that seeing stone of Orthanc, which may have been forgotten when he was given the keys, or held of little value to the Stewards any more than an heirloom, and was ensnared by Sauron, who also had obtained the stone of Minas Ithil, by turning the Orthanc-stone to his, and turned Saruman to evil. For Saruman was the most knowledgeable of the White Council in ring-lore, and he began to search now himself for the One Ring of power, for he wanted to become a Power himself, and rule over Middle-earth in Sauron's place. And he it was who bred orcs with Men and played many other foul parts in the War of the Ring, pressing the Men of Rohan and destroying their sons. But he was ousted, by the Sheperds of the Trees, the Ents, who he had forgotten, for his orcs destroyed their forests and their flocks of trees, and so they came against him, unseen, and they destroyed Isengard, and his army. Afterwards he retreated to the Shire, which he befouled, and was there slain by his twisted servant, and was never seen again. In Orthanc was found the Elendilmir which was lost with Isildur, and so it is guessed that Saruman found the remains which brings into thought terrible things, for who knows what Saruman may have done with Isildur's remains if he did find them?

But Gandalf remained true, as has been said, for his work ever drove the Children against Sauron, who was defeated and vanquished, and so Gandalf alone of the Istari returned to the West with the Ringbearers whom he had loved, most of all the Halflings of the Shire. He it was who took most notice of the Shire and the Hobbits, and he smoked like they did but perfected it and he loved the little people. It was this love that brought him into the friendship of Bilbo Baggins of Bag End who found the One Ring, and so the Ring was destroyed by Bilbo's heir, and Sauron perished.

http://www.theonering.com/reading-room/critical-viewpoints/about-the-istari-an-explanation-of-their-background


These should answer any further  questions

http://www.annalsofarda.dk/Annals-of-Arda/Misc/Misc-TheIstari.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(Middle-earth)

The movies are entertaining but they take quite a few liberties especially in the Hobbit ones, those do not even resemble Tolkien's work at times and are Hollywood.

The excerpt you posted is contradicted by Tolkien himself. And Tolkien is contracted by Tolkien himself.

Early on, Tolkien said of the Blue Wizards, "I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] – since they do not concern the history of the N[orth].W[est]. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to 'enemy-occupied' lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron."

And he claimed that of all 5, only Gandalf returned to Valinor:

Wilt thou learn the lore || that was long secret
of the Five that came || from a far country?
One only returned. || Others never again


But later in his life, Tolkien re-thought of their fate. He gave them different names (Morinehtar and Rómestámo) and in his last writings said, ""But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinethar and Rómestámo ( Darkness-slayer and East-helper ) Their task was to circumvent Sauron : to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding ( in which they failed ) and to cause ( ? dissension and disarray ) among the dark East… They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second age and Third age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East… who would both in the Second age and Third age otherwise have… outnumbered the West.""

If this were the case, they would be allowed to return to Valinor. Which points out the problem with Tolkien's writings as they often changed and are contradictory. So it's up to the reader to decide because Tolkien hadn't done so before his death.

Beorn was fond of Radagast ("not bad for a wizard") and his son  Grimbeorn could have very likely paired up with Radagast to defend the Beornings. You have to think that Sauron would not have forgotten or forgiven Beorn for killing Bolg during the Battle of the Five Armies. So my best guess is that Grimbeorn and Radagast stood side by side at the Ford of Carrock protecting the Beornings from a horde of goblins and wargs.
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Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 11:22:21 AM »

Offline eja117

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A couple things throwing me off here...

(Full disclosure: My reading is limited to the Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy and internet stuff like OneRingWiki...I own all the movies and am over influenced by them because I'm a tad visual and I've seen them more recently)

After the Battle of Five Armies I'd think they'd have no problem smashing Dol GolDur seeing as how I would think virtually their entire force had been decimated. In particular if the Elves of Lothlorien showed up to help...

One thing that throws me off is that it seems Sauron has this habit of keeping a large reserve. Like when the Battle of the Pelenor Fields is over and Gandalf says "There are now 10,000 orcs between Frodo and Mt Doom."   You'd think either they would have been more committed to the battle or maybe Aragorn would've used that ghost army to attack Mordor. I mean when the ghost king is like "Is that it?" Aragorn could've been like "Actually I need you for like 8 more hours."

And finally at some point in the Fellowship Gandalf states "His orcs have multiplied."  So this implies orcs can have babies similar to Elves because they were once elves. Yet you don't see or hear about lots of women orcs. Further if the orcs were elves that implies they're similarly immortal.  I would think this even further implies there are orcs that were around in the time of Isildur just like there are elves that have been around that long.

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2017, 12:39:45 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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A couple things throwing me off here...

(Full disclosure: My reading is limited to the Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy and internet stuff like OneRingWiki...I own all the movies and am over influenced by them because I'm a tad visual and I've seen them more recently)

After the Battle of Five Armies I'd think they'd have no problem smashing Dol GolDur seeing as how I would think virtually their entire force had been decimated. In particular if the Elves of Lothlorien showed up to help...


My understanding is that Sauron left Dol Guldur after the events of The Hobbit.  Also, note that all the action that takes place there in the movies was not portrayed in the books, especially not the clash involving Galadriel, Elrond & Saruman.  That's hollywood.   In the books it seems they didn't realize the full nature of Dol Guldur until later.

The Battle of Five Armies left everyone involved pretty spent.   Sixty years then go by before the events of the LOTR during which Sauron built up his forces, while most of the West was sitting on it's thumbs or arguing amongst itself.   Locating in Barad-Dur, so close to Mount Doom, one could imagine his power to grow his armies (however exactly that was accomplished) may have been amplified. 

It has been a few years since my last reading of the works.  I re-read them every few years and this thread is giving me the itch to do so again.

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Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2017, 01:08:00 PM »

Offline eja117

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This is sorta lame in its own way but I sorta liked most the appendices. I wish they made a movie of that

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2017, 01:08:20 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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I think there is a good chance Radagast doesn't even remember where he was during the war of the ring.

Heh.

Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2017, 03:13:56 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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This is sorta lame in its own way but I sorta liked most the appendices. I wish they made a movie of that

I enjoy a lot of stuff in the appendices, as they fill in a lot of gaps in the main Hobbit and LoTR stories. Plus, I'm a sucker for origins and ancient times (whether in real life or in my favorite fictional worlds), and the appendices have some info pertaining to that.

As an aside, my wife and I were at Sam's Club yesterday and I discovered a book called Tolkien: A Dictionary. It's an alphabetized listing of all the people, places, and events of Middle Earth—quite handy for looking up various things instead of trying to find one or two little factoids by sifting through the books themselves. And in the spirit of Tolkien's work, it's leather-bound and uses an old-fashioned typeface, and has some nice black-and-white illustrations.
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Re: Tolkein stuff
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2017, 04:27:03 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The excerpt you posted is contradicted by Tolkien himself. And Tolkien is contracted by Tolkien himself.

Authors change their minds Granath, are you claiming you know more about the world of Tolkien than Tolkien?   I know you have a high opinion of yourself, but that is pretty funny.