Author Topic: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)  (Read 5032 times)

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Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 07:12:57 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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How are the stats being projected? Those were his actual numbers, not some fluky per-36 stats. And he produced them over the final 25 games of the year.


Again, the final 25 games  he did this:
PPG 12.9
RPG 8.1
APG 2.2
BPG 0.9
SPG 1.1
FG% 50.4
FT% 71.6
MPG 30.9

His stats for the year are

PPG 8.1
RPG 4.5
APG 1.1
BPG .6
SPG .7
FG% 53
FT% .669
MPG 21.4

NBA players play a whole year not just the last 25 games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01/gamelog/2017/

RPM are actual stats but it is misleading in that it does not account for fatigue, a guy could go in a get a few rebounds and in a short time and have a great rating. That is why they have minimum number requirements for some of the stats to weed out stuff like that.

WCS looked promising coming in the league with his great vertical and good athleticism.  But he is more of an athlete than a player, name one skill that he does on an elite level at the NBA level? 

Did the switch turn on?  Could be or maybe no.

Again, over a 1/3 of the season he produced. Not coincidentally the numbers he posted occurred once Cousins was the traded. So conceivably all he needed was opportunity. This would be no different than posting Crowder's numbers in Dallas and then comparing them to those he had after the trade since, you know, it all has to do with opportunity.

I'll give you 3 skills Cauley-Stein has at an elite level for a big:
- Defending the high pick and roll
- Rim running
- Running the floor for a big

Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2017, 07:13:03 AM »

Offline Big333223

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He's such a fluid athlete and the type of players the Celtics don't have. Very enticing.

But I don't know that either team does the deal. As long as Crowder can keep up the shooting, I think he's the more valuable player. But from the Kings' side, WCS is their center. Skal and Giles are probably both 4's, Koufus is not a starter-caliber NBA player, Papagiannis is still a big question mark, and Randolph is only around to provide veteran leadership. Or the bring the weed, whichever.

It's a good idea, I just don't see it really working for either side.
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Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2017, 07:49:46 AM »

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I'd do it. I liked what I saw from WCS late last season. He still needs a lot of work but he has good tools to work with.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2017, 08:32:51 AM »

Online BitterJim

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How are the stats being projected? Those were his actual numbers, not some fluky per-36 stats. And he produced them over the final 25 games of the year.


Again, the final 25 games  he did this:
PPG 12.9
RPG 8.1
APG 2.2
BPG 0.9
SPG 1.1
FG% 50.4
FT% 71.6
MPG 30.9

His stats for the year are

PPG 8.1
RPG 4.5
APG 1.1
BPG .6
SPG .7
FG% 53
FT% .669
MPG 21.4

NBA players play a whole year not just the last 25 games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01/gamelog/2017/

RPM are actual stats but it is misleading in that it does not account for fatigue, a guy could go in a get a few rebounds and in a short time and have a great rating. That is why they have minimum number requirements for some of the stats to weed out stuff like that.

WCS looked promising coming in the league with his great vertical and good athleticism.  But he is more of an athlete than a player, name one skill that he does on an elite level at the NBA level? 

Did the switch turn on?  Could be or maybe no.

Again, over a 1/3 of the season he produced. Not coincidentally the numbers he posted occurred once Cousins was the traded. So conceivably all he needed was opportunity. This would be no different than posting Crowder's numbers in Dallas and then comparing them to those he had after the trade since, you know, it all has to do with opportunity.

I'll give you 3 skills Cauley-Stein has at an elite level for a big:
- Defending the high pick and roll
- Rim running
- Running the floor for a big

Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

He shot 39.8% on 3s last year and had an eFG% of 57.2% on 10 FGA/g.  So, shooting.
I'm bitter.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2017, 08:38:52 AM »

Online BitterJim

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What's WCS's contract situation. I don't wanna sell a really good rotation piece on a really good deal, for a rental of an admittedly God defensive big.

Mind you I am one of the bigger WCS fans on the forum.
We'd have him for two years, then I think he'd be an RFA enabling us to match. So basically a similar amount of money for a similar amount of time, except WCS would be restricted and Jae wouldn't be.

This is not true.  We have Jae under contract through 2019-2020, while WCS would become an RFA after the 2018-19 season.  We have Jae under his cheap contract for an entire extra year.

WCS, however, does make significantly less (less than half of what Jae makes this year, $2.6 million less than Jae in 2018-19), but if he turns out to be a good player then he'll make significantly more than Jae's $7.8 million in 2019-20
I'm bitter.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2017, 08:42:46 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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How are the stats being projected? Those were his actual numbers, not some fluky per-36 stats. And he produced them over the final 25 games of the year.


Again, the final 25 games  he did this:
PPG 12.9
RPG 8.1
APG 2.2
BPG 0.9
SPG 1.1
FG% 50.4
FT% 71.6
MPG 30.9

His stats for the year are

PPG 8.1
RPG 4.5
APG 1.1
BPG .6
SPG .7
FG% 53
FT% .669
MPG 21.4

NBA players play a whole year not just the last 25 games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01/gamelog/2017/

RPM are actual stats but it is misleading in that it does not account for fatigue, a guy could go in a get a few rebounds and in a short time and have a great rating. That is why they have minimum number requirements for some of the stats to weed out stuff like that.

WCS looked promising coming in the league with his great vertical and good athleticism.  But he is more of an athlete than a player, name one skill that he does on an elite level at the NBA level? 

Did the switch turn on?  Could be or maybe no.

Again, over a 1/3 of the season he produced. Not coincidentally the numbers he posted occurred once Cousins was the traded. So conceivably all he needed was opportunity. This would be no different than posting Crowder's numbers in Dallas and then comparing them to those he had after the trade since, you know, it all has to do with opportunity.

I'll give you 3 skills Cauley-Stein has at an elite level for a big:
- Defending the high pick and roll
- Rim running
- Running the floor for a big

Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

He shot 39.8% on 3s last year and had an eFG% of 57.2% on 10 FGA/g.  So, shooting.

Crowder is definitely not an elite shooter. He's a good shooter no doubt, but "elite" is a real stretch.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2017, 09:31:56 AM »

Offline number_n9ne

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No one has mentioned that trading Crowder to the Kings could screw up our Philly/Sac pick in 2019. Look at what Crowder did for us when we were a middling 10-8th seed team.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2017, 09:55:33 AM »

Offline Moranis

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How are the stats being projected? Those were his actual numbers, not some fluky per-36 stats. And he produced them over the final 25 games of the year.


Again, the final 25 games  he did this:
PPG 12.9
RPG 8.1
APG 2.2
BPG 0.9
SPG 1.1
FG% 50.4
FT% 71.6
MPG 30.9

His stats for the year are

PPG 8.1
RPG 4.5
APG 1.1
BPG .6
SPG .7
FG% 53
FT% .669
MPG 21.4

NBA players play a whole year not just the last 25 games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01/gamelog/2017/

RPM are actual stats but it is misleading in that it does not account for fatigue, a guy could go in a get a few rebounds and in a short time and have a great rating. That is why they have minimum number requirements for some of the stats to weed out stuff like that.

WCS looked promising coming in the league with his great vertical and good athleticism.  But he is more of an athlete than a player, name one skill that he does on an elite level at the NBA level? 

Did the switch turn on?  Could be or maybe no.

Again, over a 1/3 of the season he produced. Not coincidentally the numbers he posted occurred once Cousins was the traded. So conceivably all he needed was opportunity. This would be no different than posting Crowder's numbers in Dallas and then comparing them to those he had after the trade since, you know, it all has to do with opportunity.

I'll give you 3 skills Cauley-Stein has at an elite level for a big:
- Defending the high pick and roll
- Rim running
- Running the floor for a big

Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

He shot 39.8% on 3s last year and had an eFG% of 57.2% on 10 FGA/g.  So, shooting.

Crowder is definitely not an elite shooter. He's a good shooter no doubt, but "elite" is a real stretch.
No one is going to confuse Crowder with Korver or Curry, but 39.8% on 5.5 attempts is a pretty elite level of shooting.  The real question is, was that a fluke as his previous career best was 34.2 on 1.5 attempts and the prior two seasons he shot just 28.2 and 33.6 on 3.0 and 5.0 attempts.  So did Crowder turn or a corner or did he just have a fluke year?
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Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2017, 10:10:41 AM »

Offline Eddie20

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How are the stats being projected? Those were his actual numbers, not some fluky per-36 stats. And he produced them over the final 25 games of the year.


Again, the final 25 games  he did this:
PPG 12.9
RPG 8.1
APG 2.2
BPG 0.9
SPG 1.1
FG% 50.4
FT% 71.6
MPG 30.9

His stats for the year are

PPG 8.1
RPG 4.5
APG 1.1
BPG .6
SPG .7
FG% 53
FT% .669
MPG 21.4

NBA players play a whole year not just the last 25 games.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caulewi01/gamelog/2017/

RPM are actual stats but it is misleading in that it does not account for fatigue, a guy could go in a get a few rebounds and in a short time and have a great rating. That is why they have minimum number requirements for some of the stats to weed out stuff like that.

WCS looked promising coming in the league with his great vertical and good athleticism.  But he is more of an athlete than a player, name one skill that he does on an elite level at the NBA level? 

Did the switch turn on?  Could be or maybe no.

Again, over a 1/3 of the season he produced. Not coincidentally the numbers he posted occurred once Cousins was the traded. So conceivably all he needed was opportunity. This would be no different than posting Crowder's numbers in Dallas and then comparing them to those he had after the trade since, you know, it all has to do with opportunity.

I'll give you 3 skills Cauley-Stein has at an elite level for a big:
- Defending the high pick and roll
- Rim running
- Running the floor for a big

Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

He shot 39.8% on 3s last year and had an eFG% of 57.2% on 10 FGA/g.  So, shooting.

Crowder is definitely not an elite shooter. He's a good shooter no doubt, but "elite" is a real stretch.
No one is going to confuse Crowder with Korver or Curry, but 39.8% on 5.5 attempts is a pretty elite level of shooting.  The real question is, was that a fluke as his previous career best was 34.2 on 1.5 attempts and the prior two seasons he shot just 28.2 and 33.6 on 3.0 and 5.0 attempts.  So did Crowder turn or a corner or did he just have a fluke year?

You and I differ in the meaning of term elite. Which by definition is "select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities". Crowder is a good shooter, especially off wide open catch and shoot plays. However, he has no ability to shoot off the dribble, come off screens, and even his shooting when contested isn't the greatest. Again, when he has time and is wide open, especially from the corners, he's pretty good.

Courtney Lee, for example, shot a higher percentage from 3's this year and I don't think anyone would confuse his shooting to be elite either.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2017, 08:01:36 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

I am not a huge fan of Crowder but I have yet to hear the NBA skill that WCS is elite at.    I am the guy that laughed when people tried to say he was a top ten SF.  You mistake me for being a Crowder supporter which I am not.   I like him when he takes shots that he can make and doesn't play hero ball.   All too often he seemed driven to prove he was the man in some games last year and I see Crowder as a solid three and D player, not a star.

I would rather keep trade chip er Crowder to see what happens at the deadline.  I would not mind trading Crowder but I would like to get more than a big that only can shoot dunks and layups.  I just do not think WCS is the guy I would shoot for as I noted Baynes is a better defender and won't get pushed around.  I went to UK, too for my master's degree.  I was high on WCS went he came into the league as a potential Deandre Jordan type some day but at this point I wonder if he has it in him.  The Kings signed Randolph so sounds like they are not sold as well.

I do think that we will have a logjam at the wing.   I would like to see more of Brown and Tatum proving themselves before we trade Crowder.  If they do then I would not mind seeing him dealt.  But if WCS is turning the corner, so to speak, don't you think they will want to keep him?






Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2017, 10:31:14 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

I am not a huge fan of Crowder but I have yet to hear the NBA skill that WCS is elite at.    I am the guy that laughed when people tried to say he was a top ten SF.  You mistake me for being a Crowder supporter which I am not.   I like him when he takes shots that he can make and doesn't play hero ball.   All too often he seemed driven to prove he was the man in some games last year and I see Crowder as a solid three and D player, not a star.

I would rather keep trade chip er Crowder to see what happens at the deadline.  I would not mind trading Crowder but I would like to get more than a big that only can shoot dunks and layups.  I just do not think WCS is the guy I would shoot for as I noted Baynes is a better defender and won't get pushed around.  I went to UK, too for my master's degree.  I was high on WCS went he came into the league as a potential Deandre Jordan type some day but at this point I wonder if he has it in him.  The Kings signed Randolph so sounds like they are not sold as well.

I do think that we will have a logjam at the wing.   I would like to see more of Brown and Tatum proving themselves before we trade Crowder.  If they do then I would not mind seeing him dealt.  But if WCS is turning the corner, so to speak, don't you think they will want to keep him?

We only have a log jam if Tatum and Brown pan out. As of now, Crowder and Hayward are the starting wings.
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Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2017, 01:12:30 AM »

Online byennie

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Conversely, since the trade proposed involves Crowder, can you name one elite level skill Crowder possesses?

I am not a huge fan of Crowder but I have yet to hear the NBA skill that WCS is elite at.    I am the guy that laughed when people tried to say he was a top ten SF.  You mistake me for being a Crowder supporter which I am not.   I like him when he takes shots that he can make and doesn't play hero ball.   All too often he seemed driven to prove he was the man in some games last year and I see Crowder as a solid three and D player, not a star.

I would rather keep trade chip er Crowder to see what happens at the deadline.  I would not mind trading Crowder but I would like to get more than a big that only can shoot dunks and layups.  I just do not think WCS is the guy I would shoot for as I noted Baynes is a better defender and won't get pushed around.  I went to UK, too for my master's degree.  I was high on WCS went he came into the league as a potential Deandre Jordan type some day but at this point I wonder if he has it in him.  The Kings signed Randolph so sounds like they are not sold as well.

I do think that we will have a logjam at the wing.   I would like to see more of Brown and Tatum proving themselves before we trade Crowder.  If they do then I would not mind seeing him dealt.  But if WCS is turning the corner, so to speak, don't you think they will want to keep him?

WCS is definitely about versatility, not elite skills. He could maybe get there defensively- there are only so many 7 footers that can guard 3 positions and he seems to be one.

If 13/8 with a steal and a block, plus defensive versatility, plus help defense, and a passable midrange game (~37% on long twos for his career) is where he's at, he's a pretty good player.

I'd argue he has comparable value to Crowder, but could be a win-win trade based on positional need. Nice idea.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2017, 01:14:13 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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If I were Ainge, right now, I couldn't pull the trigger on this.

In all honesty, I'm just not entirely sold on WCS. 

I liked him at draft time and I can see the flashes of potential in him.  I'm just not convinced that he will ever becoming a difference maker in any one criteria over the course of his career. 

As an offensive player, he's quite limited.  Defensively I think he could be pretty good, but I don't think he'll ever be elite.  As a rebounder, I think he could be pretty good - but again probably not elite.  He's very limited as a playmaker. 

I think adding a guy like WCS to this roster could help us to fill a big hole up front, but I'm not convinced that the benefit would be significant enough to justify giving up a player that is as good overall as Crowder is. 

I know Crowder is no star, but he's a very valuable player who is a near picture-perfect fit for this team.

Offensively he's not going to carry a team, but he's extremely efficient and doesn't need the offense to run around him in order to get his points.  To illustrate this point, Crowder ranked an incredible TENTH on the team in usage rate last year, yet still managed to average 14 PPG. 

He did so while shooting 40% from three, and shooting 81% from the line (on a very impressive 30% free throw rate).  Three point shots and free throws are the two most efficient shots in the game, which is why Crowder finished with a very impressive scoring efficiency of 1.39 Points Per FGA. 

To put this into perspective, the here is the scoring efficiency of Boston's top 10 scorers last season:

1) Thomas: 28.9 PTS / 19.4 FGA = 1.49
2) Bradley: 16.3 PTS / 14.1 FGA = 1.16
3) Crowder: 13.9 PTS / 10.0 FGA = 1.39
4) Horford: 14.0 PTS / 11.8 FGA = 1.18
5) Smart: 10.6 PTS / 9.5 FGA = 1.11
6) Olynyk: 9.0 PTS / 6.8 FGA = 1.32
7) Johnson: 6.5 PTS / 4.6 FGA = 1.41
8 ) Brown: 6.6 PTS / 5.4 FGA = 1.22
9) Rozier: 5.5 PTS / 5.6 FGA = 0.98
10)  Jerebko: 3.8 PTS / 3.4 FG = 1.11

That offensive efficiency allows him to score points without specifically needing to have plays run for him.  That combined with his defensive versatility makes him a perfect complementary on a team that all features the likes of Isaiah Thomas, Gordon Hayward and Al Horford - who are always going to be above Crowder on the depth chart.

Then throw in the fact that Crowder is on such an incredibly good value contract, and it makes it very difficult for me to justify trading him unless it's part of a deal that brings a really special and game changing player in return.

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2017, 05:00:31 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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WCS is definitely about versatility, not elite skills. He could maybe get there defensively- there are only so many 7 footers that can guard 3 positions and he seems to be one.

Not on offense, he lack skills on that end.  Defense is half the game of course, but your playing four on five on the other end.

Quote
As an offensive player, he's quite limited.

Agree TP

Re: Trade Idea: Crowder for Cauley-Stein (hear me out)
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2017, 11:53:29 PM »

Offline Chief Macho

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Love it.  I mentioned Crowder for a Noel type athlete and this is perfect. I think this type of guy is something that would diversify the roster.