Author Topic: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions  (Read 2451 times)

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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 03:49:14 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Rondo is the only one I agree with.  I mean they knock the Gallinari signing because AFTER he was signed he punched someone and hurt his thumb.

Wait  you think the Hardaway Jr. signing was reasonable?
I think his salary was way too much, but I think he is actually a pretty good fit next to Porzingis and because he was restricted the Knicks absolutely had to overpay.  Whether or not they should have spent the money on him or if they just should have waited till next summer (or gotten someone cheaper) is all debatable, but the actual basketball fit I don't think is bad at all and while he is certainly overpaid, I would expect him to have pretty solid production.

Yea I don't think he is a bad fit basketball wise, but especially after it was leaked what the Hawks were willing to pay him and the Knicks were 30 million over it, it seems pretty clear this was a terrible value signing.
The thing is restricted free agency is tricky.  If the Knicks were only 15 million over what the Hawks reportedly offered, then the Hawks might have matched (a team might be willing to pay a bit more then they wanted rather than lose the player for nothing) and the Knicks wouldn't have gotten their man.  That is why it is really hard to judge the value on a restricted free agent as those contracts are almost always matched even if the team doesn't want to pay that much. I mean look at the Nets the prior summer with Crabbe and Johnson, they clearly overpaid and still didn't get either player.

But that was during the "cocaine and hookers" offseason of the spike cap where teams did not know how to spend money and ended up with some absurdly bad contracts that they instantly regretted (obviously Portland regretted matching since they traded him for (less) dead money.
every summer restricted free agents get matched.  teams know this, that is why not one team bothered to even really meet with Noel and none offered him a contract and only two other teams even met with Porter (who Washington matched).  It is hard to land a restricted free agent.  You have to overpay significantly.

I agree in general that restricted free agents are hard to figure and there are lots of issues not associated with unrestricted free agents, but using this summer is really not fair. The cap did not go up as much as teams thought it would screwing over a lot of teams  (with fear it will not go up as much in the future as originally projected a year ago) secondly you had a lot of teams with buyers remorse from last seasons spree. This was definitely a market correction that has widely been written about that squeezes the middle class of the NBA (players like Noel). Restricted free agency or not, Noel is probably going to get paid less than Mosgov and Noah signed for last summer and he is clearly a better and younger player. The reasons Noel is not getting offers have a lot more to do with a changing salary cap landscape of the NBA, his injury riddled history, potential character issues and the glut of young talented mobile centers in the NBA. His restricted free agency is probably 4th or 5th on that list of issues impacting his market. Also look at KCP?  He was supposed to be a slam dunk to have his offers matched and had his offer revoked by the pistons because of salary cap issues and the bradley trade.

All of this being said, none of it makes the Knicks signing Hardaway to 18 million a year when he is not even as good as Avery Bradley a good signing restricted free agency. Pretty surprised you seem to think it is.

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 03:57:56 PM »

Online Moranis

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.). 
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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 04:03:18 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).

Obviously his contract is what makes it a bad signing...that was the whole point.  I don't even know what you were arguing about with me then..

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 06:59:34 PM »

Offline timpiker

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I can't wait for the playoffs, just to see how Chris Paul and James Harden work together. Chris Paul will be a pit bull barking orders, while Harden completely forgets how to play basketball because the pressure of the playoffs is too much for him. As much as I like Paul, he can be too controlling, which is probably why he has never made it far in the playoffs.

I don't think this has a chance in hell of working

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 09:03:13 PM »

Offline colincb

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I can't wait for the playoffs, just to see how Chris Paul and James Harden work together. Chris Paul will be a pit bull barking orders, while Harden completely forgets how to play basketball because the pressure of the playoffs is too much for him. As much as I like Paul, he can be too controlling, which is probably why he has never made it far in the playoffs.

Paul has had some issues with the collar in the playoffs too.
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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 11:00:29 PM »

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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2017, 02:30:03 AM »

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Hayward got a vote???
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 05:37:44 AM by ederson »

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2017, 07:34:43 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities. 

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2017, 08:23:41 AM »

Online Moranis

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities.
They have Holiday who is better than Rondo and I don't think they can effectively play together, but I think they are going to try to play Holiday with Rondo together a lot.  That just doesn't seem like a good move to me.  I also disagree with Rondo being the right PG on that team.  I think he is far too much of a ball stopper (i.e. he dribbles a lot) to really work with what that team should do.

His contract is great.  There is no long term risk, but I've pretty consistently in this thread, said I've based my opinions on the basketball court and not in the contract.
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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2017, 09:08:11 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities.
They have Holiday who is better than Rondo and I don't think they can effectively play together, but I think they are going to try to play Holiday with Rondo together a lot.  That just doesn't seem like a good move to me.  I also disagree with Rondo being the right PG on that team.  I think he is far too much of a ball stopper (i.e. he dribbles a lot) to really work with what that team should do.

His contract is great.  There is no long term risk, but I've pretty consistently in this thread, said I've based my opinions on the basketball court and not in the contract.
When you've got great offensive bigs, you want a pass first PG that can create opportunities for them.  They are not going to run a GSW ball sharing, up tempo offense.  In a slow down, half court, feed the bigs offense, Rondo should work well.  Holiday will still have the ball a lot.  Last year, he played off ball quite a bit with Frazier.  Taking some of the load off Holiday in the offense will let him focus more on defense

The question remains to you.  If not Rondo, what other player could they have gotten given their cap situation who would have been better?  They were looking at a starting lineup of Holiday, Moore, Hill, Davis and Cousins.  That's not going to make the playoffs in the West. 

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2017, 09:26:22 AM »

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities.
They have Holiday who is better than Rondo and I don't think they can effectively play together, but I think they are going to try to play Holiday with Rondo together a lot.  That just doesn't seem like a good move to me.  I also disagree with Rondo being the right PG on that team.  I think he is far too much of a ball stopper (i.e. he dribbles a lot) to really work with what that team should do.

His contract is great.  There is no long term risk, but I've pretty consistently in this thread, said I've based my opinions on the basketball court and not in the contract.
When you've got great offensive bigs, you want a pass first PG that can create opportunities for them.  They are not going to run a GSW ball sharing, up tempo offense.  In a slow down, half court, feed the bigs offense, Rondo should work well.  Holiday will still have the ball a lot.  Last year, he played off ball quite a bit with Frazier.  Taking some of the load off Holiday in the offense will let him focus more on defense

The question remains to you.  If not Rondo, what other player could they have gotten given their cap situation who would have been better?  They were looking at a starting lineup of Holiday, Moore, Hill, Davis and Cousins.  That's not going to make the playoffs in the West.
They could have re-acquired Tyreke Evans, as an example.  He signed for the same contract as Rondo.  Or maybe Langston Galloway, another player with familiarity.  How about Shelvin Mack.  Ben McLemore.  CJ Miles.

All players, that signed relatively inexpensive contracts, that may not be as good as Rondo, however are better fits and don't come with the attitude problems Rondo has. 
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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2017, 06:10:36 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities.
They have Holiday who is better than Rondo and I don't think they can effectively play together, but I think they are going to try to play Holiday with Rondo together a lot.  That just doesn't seem like a good move to me.  I also disagree with Rondo being the right PG on that team.  I think he is far too much of a ball stopper (i.e. he dribbles a lot) to really work with what that team should do.

His contract is great.  There is no long term risk, but I've pretty consistently in this thread, said I've based my opinions on the basketball court and not in the contract.
When you've got great offensive bigs, you want a pass first PG that can create opportunities for them.  They are not going to run a GSW ball sharing, up tempo offense.  In a slow down, half court, feed the bigs offense, Rondo should work well.  Holiday will still have the ball a lot.  Last year, he played off ball quite a bit with Frazier.  Taking some of the load off Holiday in the offense will let him focus more on defense

The question remains to you.  If not Rondo, what other player could they have gotten given their cap situation who would have been better?  They were looking at a starting lineup of Holiday, Moore, Hill, Davis and Cousins.  That's not going to make the playoffs in the West.
They could have re-acquired Tyreke Evans, as an example.  He signed for the same contract as Rondo.  Or maybe Langston Galloway, another player with familiarity.  How about Shelvin Mack.  Ben McLemore.  CJ Miles.

All players, that signed relatively inexpensive contracts, that may not be as good as Rondo, however are better fits and don't come with the attitude problems Rondo has.
Galloway signed a 3yr/21M contract which is decidedly not inexpensive.  Miles signed at 3yr/25M.  McLemore is 2yr/10.7M.  Mack is 2yr/12M.  Only Evans at 1yr/3.3M is a comparable contract.  I'll stick with Rondo. 

Now you bring up attitude problems.  Funny cause I just saw where Bobby Portis said Rondo was the best NBA teammate he has had.  Mirotic said Rondo and Pau Gasol were.  Rondo already meshed well with Cousins on the Kings. 

Taj Gibson quotes on Rondo:

"We're a much better team with him on the court."

"He's just a great teammate.  I know he got a lot of criticism before the year. But he's always inspiring. He's in the huddle and if you're not feeling right, he's always going to have your back no matter what. That's the type of player I want to play with forever."


Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2017, 06:23:20 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities.
They have Holiday who is better than Rondo and I don't think they can effectively play together, but I think they are going to try to play Holiday with Rondo together a lot.  That just doesn't seem like a good move to me.  I also disagree with Rondo being the right PG on that team.  I think he is far too much of a ball stopper (i.e. he dribbles a lot) to really work with what that team should do.

His contract is great.  There is no long term risk, but I've pretty consistently in this thread, said I've based my opinions on the basketball court and not in the contract.
When you've got great offensive bigs, you want a pass first PG that can create opportunities for them.  They are not going to run a GSW ball sharing, up tempo offense.  In a slow down, half court, feed the bigs offense, Rondo should work well.  Holiday will still have the ball a lot.  Last year, he played off ball quite a bit with Frazier.  Taking some of the load off Holiday in the offense will let him focus more on defense

The question remains to you.  If not Rondo, what other player could they have gotten given their cap situation who would have been better?  They were looking at a starting lineup of Holiday, Moore, Hill, Davis and Cousins.  That's not going to make the playoffs in the West.
They could have re-acquired Tyreke Evans, as an example.  He signed for the same contract as Rondo.  Or maybe Langston Galloway, another player with familiarity.  How about Shelvin Mack.  Ben McLemore.  CJ Miles.

All players, that signed relatively inexpensive contracts, that may not be as good as Rondo, however are better fits and don't come with the attitude problems Rondo has.
Galloway signed a 3yr/21M contract which is decidedly not inexpensive.  Miles signed at 3yr/25M.  McLemore is 2yr/10.7M.  Mack is 2yr/12M.  Only Evans at 1yr/3.3M is a comparable contract.  I'll stick with Rondo. 

Now you bring up attitude problems.  Funny cause I just saw where Bobby Portis said Rondo was the best NBA teammate he has had.  Mirotic said Rondo and Pau Gasol were.  Rondo already meshed well with Cousins on the Kings. 

Taj Gibson quotes on Rondo:

"We're a much better team with him on the court."

"He's just a great teammate.  I know he got a lot of criticism before the year. But he's always inspiring. He's in the huddle and if you're not feeling right, he's always going to have your back no matter what. That's the type of player I want to play with forever."

Taz you have made a pretty compelling argument here. Got to say I got to agree with you. Given the contract and the alternatives (which of the list is just Evans), Rondo was a no brain risk.

Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2017, 08:04:17 PM »

Online Moranis

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I don't think Hardaway was a good signing.  The Knicks should have just saved the money for next summer since they are a team going nowhere and Hardaway isn't a guy you can't live without.  That said I don't think he was a bad addition at all on the court, which is really all this should be about.  Hardaway is a near perfect fit on that roster for what he brings.  At the end of the day they severely overpaid to get him and probably regret the signing (or will at some point), but from a purely basketball standpoint, there were far worse moves (including Rondo, Randolph to Sacto, Oladipo/Sabonis for George, etc.).
How is Rondo on a 1yr/3.3M deal a bad move?  Who were they going to get for that amount who could help them more?  If anybody can get a 2 big man offense to work well it is Rondo.  He'll get AD and Cousins much easier opportunities.
They have Holiday who is better than Rondo and I don't think they can effectively play together, but I think they are going to try to play Holiday with Rondo together a lot.  That just doesn't seem like a good move to me.  I also disagree with Rondo being the right PG on that team.  I think he is far too much of a ball stopper (i.e. he dribbles a lot) to really work with what that team should do.

His contract is great.  There is no long term risk, but I've pretty consistently in this thread, said I've based my opinions on the basketball court and not in the contract.
When you've got great offensive bigs, you want a pass first PG that can create opportunities for them.  They are not going to run a GSW ball sharing, up tempo offense.  In a slow down, half court, feed the bigs offense, Rondo should work well.  Holiday will still have the ball a lot.  Last year, he played off ball quite a bit with Frazier.  Taking some of the load off Holiday in the offense will let him focus more on defense

The question remains to you.  If not Rondo, what other player could they have gotten given their cap situation who would have been better?  They were looking at a starting lineup of Holiday, Moore, Hill, Davis and Cousins.  That's not going to make the playoffs in the West.
They could have re-acquired Tyreke Evans, as an example.  He signed for the same contract as Rondo.  Or maybe Langston Galloway, another player with familiarity.  How about Shelvin Mack.  Ben McLemore.  CJ Miles.

All players, that signed relatively inexpensive contracts, that may not be as good as Rondo, however are better fits and don't come with the attitude problems Rondo has.
Galloway signed a 3yr/21M contract which is decidedly not inexpensive.  Miles signed at 3yr/25M.  McLemore is 2yr/10.7M.  Mack is 2yr/12M.  Only Evans at 1yr/3.3M is a comparable contract.  I'll stick with Rondo. 

Now you bring up attitude problems.  Funny cause I just saw where Bobby Portis said Rondo was the best NBA teammate he has had.  Mirotic said Rondo and Pau Gasol were.  Rondo already meshed well with Cousins on the Kings. 

Taj Gibson quotes on Rondo:

"We're a much better team with him on the court."

"He's just a great teammate.  I know he got a lot of criticism before the year. But he's always inspiring. He's in the huddle and if you're not feeling right, he's always going to have your back no matter what. That's the type of player I want to play with forever."

Taz you have made a pretty compelling argument here. Got to say I got to agree with you. Given the contract and the alternatives (which of the list is just Evans), Rondo was a no brain risk.
except none of those guys aside from Miles are point guards and he can shoot
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Re: ESPN Ranks worst offseason additions
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2017, 02:38:27 AM »

Offline CelticsElite

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I agree Howard is overrated. Its a good list