Author Topic: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned  (Read 726 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 08:55:56 AM »

Online eja117

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17410
  • Tommy Points: 1087
It makes every sense to let in some cheaters and not others. If we let in some and not others that's their fault and not ours because this is due to their actions and not ours. Tons of them used, few of them talked about it (other than Canseco who spoke about it with pride), some of them lied about it, and some of them (looking at you Bonds and Palmeiro) used and then called us idiots for accusing them of it.
Their entire union fought as hard as they could as long as they could for status quo so they are all guilty by association.

When we look back at who we want in the HOF (which is a privilege and not a right) they have put us squarely in decision land. And that's what's happening. People are making decisions. If they don't like those decisions too bad. We didn't like what they did to baseball.

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 08:58:34 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16503
  • Tommy Points: 783
If Ivan Rodriguez made it, there's absolutely zero reason to keep Bonds and Clemens out. Those guys are "Pantheon" guys, even before steroids.
Please prove that Pudge used steroids or any PEDs and get back to me. Thanks

Please prove Clemens or any of the other guys who never failed a drug test did.

Canseco said he injected Pudge and was never sued for defamation.
Bonds literally admitted to using steroids, and just said that he didnít know they were PEDs at the time when he took them.

Clemens was also accused by Canseco of using steroids, as well as his personal trainer under oath. Investigators also found cotton swabs and needles with steroid residue and Clemens DNA in his personal trainerís office.

Pudge was only accused by Canseco in his book. Thatís the only ďevidence" against him. I could write a book saying you used steroids. Does that make it true? There is way more actual evidence against Clemens. And it is simply a fact that Bonds used steroids. He admitted to it.
Aaron and Mays used illegal amphetamines. Why is that ok and not a bar from the HOF?
Proof?

also, what is the impact of taking amphetamines in terms of improving baseball performance?

I'm genuinely asking because this is the first I've heard of it.
Aaron acknowledged in his autobiography he took a Greenie (i.e. speed/amphetamine).  A number of former teammates have linked Mays to amphetamines, a pitcher even claimed Mays' locker was the place to go to get them. 

Amphetamines were illegal and thus banned by baseball (that is the logic used for steroids which weren't officially on the banned substance list until 2002 when the MLBPA officially agreed to it).  Speed increases your awareness, wakes you up, and generally makes it easier to get through the grind of the season.  It makes it easier to do your job as a player because you are more alert and awake, thus it is a performance enhancer. 

It is just a double standard that has no business in the game.  I mean a guy like Gaylord Perry is praised for throwing vaseline balls and spit balls, but hey lets reward him by putting him in the HOF.  Whitey Ford has acknowledged he did everything under the sun to doctor the ball illegally.  Ok for him, HOF.  Don Sutton, famous ball docterer as well.  Also in the HOF.  Joe Niekro, not in the HOF, but famously got caught on tv emptying sand paper and an emery board from his pocket.  He is beloved for that, not vilified.

Maybe you remember just last year Joel Peralta was ejected for having pine tar in his glove, before he ever pitched in the game.  What makes that one stand out is that the opposing manager, Davey Johnson, knew pine tar would be in the glove because Peralta used to pitch for him and always had pine tar in his glove.  In other words, it was ok for Peralta to cheat when he was Johnson's player, but not ok for him to cheat when he was on the opposing team. 

Then you have guys like George Brett.  The most beloved Royal ever.  An all time great.  A player that was caught using pine tar and instead of a home run was ruled out.  That form of cheating is ok though, no other repercussions and a HOF plaque for Brett.  Then you have a real jerk like Ty Cobb, who would openly and illegally sharpen his spikes in front of the opposing team, so they wouldn't get in his way on a slide (and thus let him advance farther then he should have). 

and let's save the best for last.  Babe Ruth.  He used a corked bat at least once and Bill James theorizes, he used it for most of his career.  But hey using a corked bat is perfectly legal, right? so no harm no foul.   http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/09/life_liberty_and_breaking_the_rules.html

Baseball was born on cheating.  It has always been a part of the game.  It will always be a part of the game.  It nothing but hypocrisy to treat one form of cheating different than any other form of cheating. 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 09:00:57 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16503
  • Tommy Points: 783
If Ivan Rodriguez made it, there's absolutely zero reason to keep Bonds and Clemens out. Those guys are "Pantheon" guys, even before steroids.
Please prove that Pudge used steroids or any PEDs and get back to me. Thanks

Please prove Clemens or any of the other guys who never failed a drug test did.

Canseco said he injected Pudge and was never sued for defamation.
Bonds literally admitted to using steroids, and just said that he didnít know they were PEDs at the time when he took them.

Clemens was also accused by Canseco of using steroids, as well as his personal trainer under oath. Investigators also found cotton swabs and needles with steroid residue and Clemens DNA in his personal trainerís office.

Pudge was only accused by Canseco in his book. Thatís the only ďevidence" against him. I could write a book saying you used steroids. Does that make it true? There is way more actual evidence against Clemens. And it is simply a fact that Bonds used steroids. He admitted to it.

Canseco said he "suspected" Clemens, but never saw him use. Clemens' trainer was a con man who claimed he was a doctor (he wasn't), who kept needles for years in an attempt to set Clemens up. In a secretly recorded conversation, Clemens repeatedly denied using. He was acquitted of perjury related to PED use.

Literally every other player other than Rodriguez that Canseco said used was later shown to have. Pudge is the lone exception? No way.

Was Clemens clean? I doubt it, despite the lack of rock solid evidence. Same thing with every other cheater who never failed a test. It was part of the game. Letting in some cheaters but not others makes no sense.
the proper response is to keep them all out of the Hall.  No place for those that made a mockery of the game and it's records.  No other sport points to its players' accomplishments with as much pride as baseball. 

Every player that juiced up should be kept out of the Hall.  Every player that gambled on baseball or threw a game should be kept out of the Hall.  What message does that send to players that they can pull that garbage and still be 'honored' for their 'contributions' to the game if they're allowed in the Hall?
No the proper response is to let them all in, just like they do in every other sport and just like baseball has done with all the amphetamine users, spit ball pitchers, pine tar users, etc. 
again, where's the proof of amphetamine use and what is the effect it has when playing baseball? 

there's a big difference between people who bent the rules concerning equipment (pine tar?  really?  like that made much of a difference.  doesn't make you hit the ball better or harder or farther - just improves grip and having it too far up the handle as Brett did in that one famous incident doesn't do a [dang] thing) and those that did something unnatural to themselves physically.
Just out of curiousity, what do you think an improved grip does when you swing? 

And to answer that question, it allows you to hit the ball farther and with more accuracy because you have more control on the bat when you swing it.  There is a reason it is banned and illegal after all. 
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2017, 10:03:45 AM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17526
  • Tommy Points: 8700
If Ivan Rodriguez made it, there's absolutely zero reason to keep Bonds and Clemens out. Those guys are "Pantheon" guys, even before steroids.
Please prove that Pudge used steroids or any PEDs and get back to me. Thanks

Please prove Clemens or any of the other guys who never failed a drug test did.

Canseco said he injected Pudge and was never sued for defamation.
Bonds literally admitted to using steroids, and just said that he didnít know they were PEDs at the time when he took them.

Clemens was also accused by Canseco of using steroids, as well as his personal trainer under oath. Investigators also found cotton swabs and needles with steroid residue and Clemens DNA in his personal trainerís office.

Pudge was only accused by Canseco in his book. Thatís the only ďevidence" against him. I could write a book saying you used steroids. Does that make it true? There is way more actual evidence against Clemens. And it is simply a fact that Bonds used steroids. He admitted to it.
Aaron and Mays used illegal amphetamines. Why is that ok and not a bar from the HOF?
Proof?

also, what is the impact of taking amphetamines in terms of improving baseball performance?

I'm genuinely asking because this is the first I've heard of it.
Aaron acknowledged in his autobiography he took a Greenie (i.e. speed/amphetamine).  A number of former teammates have linked Mays to amphetamines, a pitcher even claimed Mays' locker was the place to go to get them. 

Amphetamines were illegal and thus banned by baseball (that is the logic used for steroids which weren't officially on the banned substance list until 2002 when the MLBPA officially agreed to it).  Speed increases your awareness, wakes you up, and generally makes it easier to get through the grind of the season.  It makes it easier to do your job as a player because you are more alert and awake, thus it is a performance enhancer.


It is just a double standard that has no business in the game.  I mean a guy like Gaylord Perry is praised for throwing vaseline balls and spit balls, but hey lets reward him by putting him in the HOF.  Whitey Ford has acknowledged he did everything under the sun to doctor the ball illegally.  Ok for him, HOF.  Don Sutton, famous ball docterer as well.  Also in the HOF.  Joe Niekro, not in the HOF, but famously got caught on tv emptying sand paper and an emery board from his pocket.  He is beloved for that, not vilified.

Maybe you remember just last year Joel Peralta was ejected for having pine tar in his glove, before he ever pitched in the game.  What makes that one stand out is that the opposing manager, Davey Johnson, knew pine tar would be in the glove because Peralta used to pitch for him and always had pine tar in his glove.  In other words, it was ok for Peralta to cheat when he was Johnson's player, but not ok for him to cheat when he was on the opposing team. 

Then you have guys like George Brett.  The most beloved Royal ever.  An all time great.  A player that was caught using pine tar and instead of a home run was ruled out.  That form of cheating is ok though, no other repercussions and a HOF plaque for Brett.  Then you have a real jerk like Ty Cobb, who would openly and illegally sharpen his spikes in front of the opposing team, so they wouldn't get in his way on a slide (and thus let him advance farther then he should have). 

and let's save the best for last.  Babe Ruth.  He used a corked bat at least once and Bill James theorizes, he used it for most of his career.  But hey using a corked bat is perfectly legal, right? so no harm no foul.   http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/09/life_liberty_and_breaking_the_rules.html

Baseball was born on cheating.  It has always been a part of the game.  It will always be a part of the game.  It nothing but hypocrisy to treat one form of cheating different than any other form of cheating. 
Thanks for that info - I honestly hadn't heard that previously.

as for the rest, it goes to my point of seeing a difference between doctoring equipment and yourself.  you may not see that there's a difference but I do.  Also, I don't celebrate the cheating but don't disagree that doctoring the bats or balls was an integral part of the game's history. 

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2017, 10:14:02 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16503
  • Tommy Points: 783
Thanks for that info - I honestly hadn't heard that previously.

as for the rest, it goes to my point of seeing a difference between doctoring equipment and yourself.  you may not see that there's a difference but I do.  Also, I don't celebrate the cheating but don't disagree that doctoring the bats or balls was an integral part of the game's history.
I think you are making a distinction without a difference.  In both instances you are making yourself a better player by "unnatural" means.  There is a reason players do all of those things, because it helps them and makes them better.  I mean taking steroids alone does nothing for you, you still have to put in the work to utilize them and maximize their potential.  Look at this way.  Jose and Ozzie Canesco were identical twins.  Both took steroids.  Both had vastly different careers.  So two players with identical physical traits, who both used steroids, one of them had a very long and successful career, the other one is probably most well known for impersonating his brother on a VH1 reality series.  Steroids don't make you great, they aren't some magic pill you can take and do nothing else.  You have to put in the work and you have to have talent already.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2017, 10:25:59 AM »

Offline Donoghus

  • Global Moderator
  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23131
  • Tommy Points: 955
  • What a Pub Should Be
People are actually celebrating this anniversary? 

Umm...okay.  ::)


2010 CB Historical Draft - Best Overall Team

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2017, 10:42:53 AM »

Offline D Dub

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3003
  • Tommy Points: 237
Quote from: Moranis
Aaron acknowledged in his autobiography he took a Greenie (i.e. speed/amphetamine).  A number of former teammates have linked Mays to amphetamines, a pitcher even claimed Mays' locker was the place to go to get them. 

Amphetamines were illegal and thus banned by baseball (that is the logic used for steroids which weren't officially on the banned substance list until 2002 when the MLBPA officially agreed to it).  Speed increases your awareness, wakes you up, and generally makes it easier to get through the grind of the season.  It makes it easier to do your job as a player because you are more alert and awake, thus it is a performance enhancer. 

It is just a double standard that has no business in the game.  I mean a guy like Gaylord Perry is praised for throwing vaseline balls and spit balls, but hey lets reward him by putting him in the HOF.  Whitey Ford has acknowledged he did everything under the sun to doctor the ball illegally.  Ok for him, HOF.  Don Sutton, famous ball docterer as well.  Also in the HOF.  Joe Niekro, not in the HOF, but famously got caught on tv emptying sand paper and an emery board from his pocket.  He is beloved for that, not vilified.

Maybe you remember just last year Joel Peralta was ejected for having pine tar in his glove, before he ever pitched in the game.  What makes that one stand out is that the opposing manager, Davey Johnson, knew pine tar would be in the glove because Peralta used to pitch for him and always had pine tar in his glove.  In other words, it was ok for Peralta to cheat when he was Johnson's player, but not ok for him to cheat when he was on the opposing team. 

Then you have guys like George Brett.  The most beloved Royal ever.  An all time great.  A player that was caught using pine tar and instead of a home run was ruled out.  That form of cheating is ok though, no other repercussions and a HOF plaque for Brett.  Then you have a real jerk like Ty Cobb, who would openly and illegally sharpen his spikes in front of the opposing team, so they wouldn't get in his way on a slide (and thus let him advance farther then he should have). 

and let's save the best for last.  Babe Ruth.  He used a corked bat at least once and Bill James theorizes, he used it for most of his career.  But hey using a corked bat is perfectly legal, right? so no harm no foul.   http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2010/09/life_liberty_and_breaking_the_rules.html

Baseball was born on cheating.  It has always been a part of the game.  It will always be a part of the game.  It nothing but hypocrisy to treat one form of cheating different than any other form of cheating.

TP, Moranis

In my view Bonds is the greatest ball player of all time.   He could do it all, and late in his career the ability to hit anything close to the plate -- dead on the screws, every single time -- will never be duplicated.
Quote from: Isaiah Thomas
I don't believe in pressure

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2017, 11:01:54 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9275
  • Tommy Points: 1023

In my view Bonds is the greatest ball player of all time.   

Yup, my thoughts exactly.  Bonds was a true all-around player, he could do anything.


Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2017, 11:59:32 AM »

Offline furball

  • Kyrie Irving
  • Posts: 885
  • Tommy Points: 79
OK, As far as amphetamines goes, they were rampart in baseball until they were banned with steroids.  It was totally accepted and you could get them in the training room.  word is there were literally bowls of pills you could choose from.  Banning them is the reason there were so many no hitters and close no hitters after the steroid ban.  Hitter would/still get tired on long road trips and after long stretches without off days. 

Jose Canseco originally insisted Clemens never used.  I don't know if he has since walked that back but when Clemens was first accused Canseco was completely on his side.

All the steroid guys should be in the Hall.  There should be something on their plaque about the steroid era (or maybe give it it's own wing or something) but they should be in.  It wasn't like it was one or two guys, it was most of the league.  I am sure there are probably users already in and there will be guys who get in who used but were not outed. 

The big test will be when Big Papi is eligible.  He used, everyone knows he used but no one cares because he is fat. 

Also, Babe Ruth is the greatest baseball player of all time and it's not close.  First you need to look at what he was doing and when he was doing it.  Also, when he was a red Sox he was one of the best lefty pitchers in the league, Bonds (or anyone else) can't compete with that. 

Re: 10 years ago a new HR King was crowned
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2017, 12:10:40 PM »

Offline Moranis

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16503
  • Tommy Points: 783
I tend to think Babe Ruth is the best ever as well, but he played so long ago it is really hard to compare him to the more modern players.  I certainly have no issue if someone thinks it is Bonds or Mays, and can certainly see arguments for any of the 3 of them.
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.