Author Topic: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).  (Read 4898 times)

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Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2017, 11:08:06 PM »

Offline chiken Green

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Isaiah Thomas
Gordon Hayward
Al Horford
Marcus Smart
Marcus Morris
Jaylen Brown
Jae Crowder
Terry Rozier
Jayson Tatum
Aaron Baynes
Daniel Theis
Semi Ojelye
Ante Zizic
Guerschon Yabusele
Abdel Nader

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2017, 11:15:30 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I am deeply confused (and borderline disturbed) by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

There are many who think Smart is an All-NBA 1st Team level defender while Crowder may have fallen off a bit last year. I generally agree with the first part of my comment and, technically, defense is half the game.

Crowder is currently definitely a better 3-pt shooter, but it's not like he is able to create for himself or make plays at the rim any better than Smart. The playmaking and All-World defense (along with continued possible potential) tip the scales for me.

I disagree with the bold part, since Smart cannot do this in any capacity whatsoever.  Crowder isn't great at creating or making plays at the time, but he can occasionally.

All-World defense is also a bit of an exaggeration IMHO.  Smart's defense is overrated by Celtics fans.  It's very good don't get me wrong, but people speak like his the ultimate transcendent lock down defender, and he really isn't.

Against the Bulls it was Avery Bradley (despite giving up about 6 inches), not Marcus Smart, who consistently shut down Jimmy Butler.  Smart did a solid job on him, but Bradley really slowed him down A LOT while also scorching him on the other end of the floor as well.

As it stands I would rate smart as:
* Very good defender
* Very good rebounder (for position)
* Average playmaker
* Average athlete
* Below average ball handler
* Below average decision maker
* Poor shooter

And I don't rate his potential too highly since his shown little if any progression as a player after three seasons of NBA play.
I agree.  Smarts defense is WAY overrated by Celtic fans.  He has trouble against quicker guards and he's a much better team defender than he is a man to man defender overall.  That's a far far cry from this all world defender that people make him out to be.  And no, defense isn't half the game.  Offense considerably more important from an individual standpoint.

Shhhh the CelticBlog gods will hear you and will strike you down with a lightning bolt!

Quickly, you have to say that Marcus Smart is the best defensive player since Bill Russell!  Or at the very least you need to say he is the best defensive player since Kevin Garnett!  Any less and you will be burnt alive.

Edit:
Actually, if you just claim that he will be a future MVP and hall of famer "after he corrects his shot" TM then that might be enough to free you from the executioner.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2017, 11:43:20 PM »

Offline nebist

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Crowder's complete inability to dribble is as glaring a weakness as Smart's shooting woes.  Smart is a significantly better defender and team leader.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2017, 12:17:43 AM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Crowder's complete inability to dribble is as glaring a weakness as Smart's shooting woes.  Smart is a significantly better defender and team leader.

I disagree with both sentences.

The league will always value 3-and-D guys. What place is there for a guard who can't shoot in today's league?

Smart may be a better defender, but it's not significant. I think they are both leaders (Marcus more on the court, Jae off it).
CELTICS 2024

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2017, 12:26:07 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Crowder's complete inability to dribble is as glaring a weakness as Smart's shooting woes.  Smart is a significantly better defender and team leader.

I disagree with both sentences.

The league will always value 3-and-D guys. What place is there for a guard who can't shoot in today's league?

Smart may be a better defender, but it's not significant. I think they are both leaders (Marcus more on the court, Jae off it).
Any basis for thinking Crowder is a good leader off the court?
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2017, 12:52:45 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I am deeply confused (and borderline disturbed) by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

There are many who think Smart is an All-NBA 1st Team level defender while Crowder may have fallen off a bit last year. I generally agree with the first part of my comment and, technically, defense is half the game.

Crowder is currently definitely a better 3-pt shooter, but it's not like he is able to create for himself or make plays at the rim any better than Smart. The playmaking and All-World defense (along with continued possible potential) tip the scales for me.

I disagree with the bold part, since Smart cannot do this in any capacity whatsoever.  Crowder isn't great at creating or making plays at the time, but he can occasionally.

All-World defense is also a bit of an exaggeration IMHO.  Smart's defense is overrated by Celtics fans.  It's very good don't get me wrong, but people speak like his the ultimate transcendent lock down defender, and he really isn't.

Against the Bulls it was Avery Bradley (despite giving up about 6 inches), not Marcus Smart, who consistently shut down Jimmy Butler.  Smart did a solid job on him, but Bradley really slowed him down A LOT while also scorching him on the other end of the floor as well.

As it stands I would rate smart as:
* Very good defender
* Very good rebounder (for position)
* Average playmaker
* Average athlete
* Below average ball handler
* Below average decision maker
* Poor shooter

And I don't rate his potential too highly since his shown little if any progression as a player after three seasons of NBA play.
I agree.  Smarts defense is WAY overrated by Celtic fans.  He has trouble against quicker guards and he's a much better team defender than he is a man to man defender overall.  That's a far far cry from this all world defender that people make him out to be.  And no, defense isn't half the game.  Offense considerably more important from an individual standpoint.

Its not overrated. It is very very good. Even great defenders have bad matchups. Kawhi is a great defender, but if he guards Demarcus Cousins and gets burned, does that mean he isn't a good defender?

Let's just take for example the Washington game. It was very clear Smart had a hard time against Wall, but AB made his life hell. HOWEVER, when matched up  with Beal, AB was eaten up alive, and only slowed down when Smart was on him. Does that make them both not good defenders? Its baloney.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2017, 01:00:32 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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I am deeply confused (and borderline disturbed) by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

There are many who think Smart is an All-NBA 1st Team level defender while Crowder may have fallen off a bit last year. I generally agree with the first part of my comment and, technically, defense is half the game.

Crowder is currently definitely a better 3-pt shooter, but it's not like he is able to create for himself or make plays at the rim any better than Smart. The playmaking and All-World defense (along with continued possible potential) tip the scales for me.

I disagree with the bold part, since Smart cannot do this in any capacity whatsoever.  Crowder isn't great at creating or making plays at the time, but he can occasionally.

All-World defense is also a bit of an exaggeration IMHO.  Smart's defense is overrated by Celtics fans.  It's very good don't get me wrong, but people speak like his the ultimate transcendent lock down defender, and he really isn't.

Against the Bulls it was Avery Bradley (despite giving up about 6 inches), not Marcus Smart, who consistently shut down Jimmy Butler.  Smart did a solid job on him, but Bradley really slowed him down A LOT while also scorching him on the other end of the floor as well.

As it stands I would rate smart as:
* Very good defender
* Very good rebounder (for position)
* Average playmaker
* Average athlete
* Below average ball handler
* Below average decision maker
* Poor shooter

And I don't rate his potential too highly since his shown little if any progression as a player after three seasons of NBA play.
I agree.  Smarts defense is WAY overrated by Celtic fans.  He has trouble against quicker guards and he's a much better team defender than he is a man to man defender overall.  That's a far far cry from this all world defender that people make him out to be.  And no, defense isn't half the game.  Offense considerably more important from an individual standpoint.

Its not overrated. It is very very good. Even great defenders have bad matchups. Kawhi is a great defender, but if he guards Demarcus Cousins and gets burned, does that mean he isn't a good defender?

Let's just take for example the Washington game. It was very clear Smart had a hard time against Wall, but AB made his life hell. HOWEVER, when matched up  with Beal, AB was eaten up alive, and only slowed down when Smart was on him. Does that make them both not good defenders? Its baloney.
What small forward five kawhi trouble?  How are you going to compare a center against kawhi?  Bottom line is that smart does do better against some guards than others.  But there are more than a few quick guards are going to give smart a whole of of trouble.  You don't say that about an all world defender. 

Again, smart is a good defender.  But people around here over blow that ability tremendously.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2017, 01:42:23 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Crowder's complete inability to dribble is as glaring a weakness as Smart's shooting woes.  Smart is a significantly better defender and team leader.

What the hell...?

Marcus Smart is one of the worst ball handling guards I have ever witnessed in my entire years of watching professional basketball. I legitimately think that Kelly Olynyk and Al Horford might have better handles then Smart. 

The only thing Smart does well (handle wise) is use his wide frame to shield the ball from defenders - and that's not a skill, that's just a natural benefit he gains from being a very solid guy.  Beyond that he rarely ever needs to handle the ball against pressure since he's such a non threat that opponents rarely ever apply defensive pressure on him, and every time they do he looks like he's about to bounce the ball directly off his foot.

Crowder isn't a good ball handler but it's not a critical skill for a SF...however Smart is an equally garbage ball handler which is a serious problem given he is a point guard.

As for leadership, what leadership?  Smart is the basketball equivalent of an angry Orc with a big club.  Just tell him where the bad guy is and he will charge in an Orc rage and club whatever you point him at to a pump.  He's not exactly the smartest or most sophisticated basketball mind in the association.

Also Smart definitely is NOT a "significantly better defender" then Crowder.  That's not confirmed by eye test and it's not confirmed by any statistic (basic or advanced) that I have ever seen. Because it simply isn't true.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 01:51:35 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2017, 05:45:01 AM »

Offline Androslav

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Hayward
IT
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Morris
Brown
Tatum
Rozier
Baynes
Žižić
Ojelye

I am not that chrystal in the 7-12 range.
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2017, 07:16:18 AM »

Offline iadera

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  • CroCeltics
Hayward
IT4
Horford
Crowder
Marc Smart
Morris
Brown
Tatum
Theis
Baynes
Rozier
Yabusele
Zizic


i like this list .   But ai expecting Tatum could move to 3-4 postion by next year .

Me to. Actually I expect him to be our corner stone together with Hayw. in 2 years

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2017, 07:36:25 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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1. Thomas
2. Hayward
3. Horford
4. Crowder
5. Morris
6. Smart
7. Brown
8. Rozier
9. Tatum
10. Baynes
11. Nader
12. Zizic
13. Ojeleye
14. Theis
15. Yabusele

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2017, 03:34:45 PM »

Offline mgent

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IT
Hayward
Horford
Crowder
Smart

Morris
Brown
Tatum
Baynes
Rozier

Yabu
Zizic
Larkin
Nader
Theis

Ojeleye (Red Claws?)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 03:41:04 PM by mgent »
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2017, 04:14:21 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Maybe people are rating Smart higher than Crowder because Crowder is a cry baby and Smart is the opposite.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2017, 04:31:25 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Crowder's complete inability to dribble is as glaring a weakness as Smart's shooting woes.  Smart is a significantly better defender and team leader.

What the hell...?

Marcus Smart is one of the worst ball handling guards I have ever witnessed in my entire years of watching professional basketball. I legitimately think that Kelly Olynyk and Al Horford might have better handles then Smart. 

The only thing Smart does well (handle wise) is use his wide frame to shield the ball from defenders - and that's not a skill, that's just a natural benefit he gains from being a very solid guy.  Beyond that he rarely ever needs to handle the ball against pressure since he's such a non threat that opponents rarely ever apply defensive pressure on him, and every time they do he looks like he's about to bounce the ball directly off his foot.

Crowder isn't a good ball handler but it's not a critical skill for a SF...however Smart is an equally garbage ball handler which is a serious problem given he is a point guard.

As for leadership, what leadership?  Smart is the basketball equivalent of an angry Orc with a big club.  Just tell him where the bad guy is and he will charge in an Orc rage and club whatever you point him at to a pump.  He's not exactly the smartest or most sophisticated basketball mind in the association.

Also Smart definitely is NOT a "significantly better defender" then Crowder.  That's not confirmed by eye test and it's not confirmed by any statistic (basic or advanced) that I have ever seen. Because it simply isn't true.

The reason I put Smart over Crowder is just my belief that Crowder has plateaued while Smart at 23 has room to develop.  I have faith that this will be a better shooting and decision-making year for him and I expect him to be more valuable to the team than Crowder.  Not by leaps and bounds, but by a small measure..

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2017, 04:36:48 PM »

Offline OHCeltic

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Hayward
Horford
Thomas
Morris Smart
Crowder
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Larkin
Zizic
Nader
Ojeleye
Baynes
Yabusele