Author Topic: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).  (Read 4920 times)

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Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2017, 08:01:05 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I am deeply confused (and borderline disturbed) by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

There are many who think Smart is an All-NBA 1st Team level defender while Crowder may have fallen off a bit last year. I generally agree with the first part of my comment and, technically, defense is half the game.

Crowder is currently definitely a better 3-pt shooter, but it's not like he is able to create for himself or make plays at the rim any better than Smart. The playmaking and All-World defense (along with continued possible potential) tip the scales for me.

I think it goes: Hayward, IT, Horford, Smart, Crowder, Morris, Brown, Tatum, Rozier, Baynes, and then I have no idea.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2017, 08:08:29 PM »

Offline loco_91

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I am deeply confused by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

Not only are Crowder's basic box score stats an entire stratosphere above Smart's, but even his advanced stats relating to sheer impact (which appears to be the strongest argument that exists for Smart's contributions) are still far and away in favor of Crowder.

While Crowder is better than Smart, it's less ridiculous to put Smart ahead of Crowder than to put Brown, Tatum and Morris ahead of Smart as you have. By the way, most Smart supporters (me included) would disagree that advanced stats accurately value Smart's impact.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 08:27:32 PM »

Offline footey

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 Tatum
 Bird
 Allen
 Nader
 Semi
 Baynes
 Zizic

TP. Summer League bias.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 08:33:07 PM »

Offline footey

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Start of Season:

IT
Hayward
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Morris
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Yabusele
Zizic

End of Season:

Hayward
IT
Horford
Brown
Morris
Tatum
Smart
Rozier
Crowder
Yabusele
Theis
Zizic
Baynes

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 08:54:06 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Start of Season:

IT
Hayward
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Morris
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Yabusele
Zizic

End of Season:

Hayward
IT
Horford
Brown
Morris
Tatum
Smart
Rozier
Crowder
Yabusele
Theis
Zizic
Baynes

If Jae is our ninth-best player heading into the playoffs, I can't wait for the parade in June.
CELTICS 2024

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 09:18:57 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Start of Season:

IT
Hayward
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Morris
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Yabusele
Zizic

End of Season:

Hayward
IT
Horford
Brown
Morris
Tatum
Smart
Rozier
Crowder
Yabusele
Theis
Zizic
Baynes

If Jae is our ninth-best player heading into the playoffs, I can't wait for the parade in June.

Ain't nobody that can launch a brick three early in the shot clock that back rims hard leading to a long rebound and fast break bucket for the opposing team like Jae Crowder.
Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 09:27:37 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Start of Season:

IT
Hayward
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Morris
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Yabusele
Zizic

End of Season:

Hayward
IT
Horford
Brown
Morris
Tatum
Smart
Rozier
Crowder
Yabusele
Theis
Zizic
Baynes

If Jae is our ninth-best player heading into the playoffs, I can't wait for the parade in June.

Ain't nobody that can launch a brick three early in the shot clock that back rims hard leading to a long rebound and fast break bucket for the opposing team like Jae Crowder.

Yeah, he must do that at least 6-7 times each game. League-leader by a wide margin, as per fivethirtyeight.com.

 ::)
CELTICS 2024

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 09:32:31 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I am deeply confused by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

Not only are Crowder's basic box score stats an entire stratosphere above Smart's, but even his advanced stats relating to sheer impact (which appears to be the strongest argument that exists for Smart's contributions) are still far and away in favor of Crowder.

While Crowder is better than Smart, it's less ridiculous to put Smart ahead of Crowder than to put Brown, Tatum and Morris ahead of Smart as you have. By the way, most Smart supporters (me included) would disagree that advanced stats accurately value Smart's impact.

This is a prediction of how the players will rank this year, given half these guys obviously haven't played yet predicting is all we can do.

Brown showed flashes of two-way potential last year as a rookie, and arguably had just as much impact as Smart did in the finals against Clevleand, outside of Smart's one fluke big game.   He's shown the ability to hit very difficult shots, the ability to shoot relatively consistently from three, the ability to rebound, score in transition and off the dribble, an flashes of defensive potential.    This season he'll have a full season under his belt, I don't think it's unreasonable to predict that he could well eclipse Marcus Smart as an all-round player.

Marcus Morris IMHO is already above Marcus Smart, and I have no idea how you could argue otherwise.  He's well acknowledged as being a very good defensive player, and has been especially highly praised for the impressive defensive job he did on Lebron and Kevin Love last season.  He's also been a consistently productive offensive player averaging double figure scoring for his career on 43% / 35% shooting for his career, along with a career high 14 PPG last season - which is WORLDS beyond anything Smart has ever even dreamed of putting up.  As a legitimate two-way threat every night who also offers superior physical versatility (duet o his size and length) I think it's pretty hard to argue that Smart is better then Marcus Morris right now. 

Tatum of course is a controversial one.  All we have to go off is college and summer league.  But we have to rank him somehow, and he's got to sit somewhere, so this is where I'm predicting he'll fall.  Up until now the most promising prospects Danny has drafted here since the rebuild have been Marcus Smart and Jaylen Brown - Tatum's summer league performance was worlds above what Smart and Brown managed in their rookies years, and IMHO Tatum has already shown more skill on offense AND on the boards then either Smart or Brown have ever flashed. There are a LOT of people out there who have sad Tatum has been the most impressive rookie so far in this incredibly stacked draft, and I don't disagree with them.  While nothing is certain, if Tatum was getting starters minutes on a lesser team I'd predict that he could put up 17 points / 7 and a very strong push for ROY consideration.  On this team he'll have less opportunity, but I still think he will cement himself as being the best offensive player on our bench (and possibly our 6th man and leader of the second unit) by the time this season is up.   On a second unit that is currently desperately lacking in offensive shot creation, I rate that as being more valuable to this Celtics team then what Smart offers.

On that other hand Marcus Smart is a one dimensional combo guard who has been in the league playing starters minutes for three years and has shown close to zero progression, and has continued to prove he is one of the worst shooters among all NBA guards while continuing to chuck up 3-4 attempts a night.

He does what he does (defense, hustle) very well, but you always need to factor in what liabilities he brings along with that and those often offset much of the good he does.  If this was a team where hustle and defense were all that mattered, then I'd be happy to rate him in the top 3 on the team.  But it's not, so I didn't.

If Smart can come out this season and either (a) shoot a half respectable 3PT% and FG% or (b) shot chucking stupid amounts of threes then I would happily move him further up the list.  Until then, I have him right where I believe he deserves to be.

If I were him I'd be looking very anxiously over my shoulder at Terry Rozier too, because Rozier has far superior raw talent then Smart does and seems to be showing more rapid signs of improvement - if he ever flips the switch and starts to  do his thing with some consistency, he'll leapfrog Smart pretty quickly too.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 09:40:49 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 09:33:11 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Start of Season:

IT
Hayward
Horford
Crowder
Smart
Morris
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Yabusele
Zizic

End of Season:

Hayward
IT
Horford
Brown
Morris
Tatum
Smart
Rozier
Crowder
Yabusele
Theis
Zizic
Baynes

If Jae is our ninth-best player heading into the playoffs, I can't wait for the parade in June.

Ain't nobody that can launch a brick three early in the shot clock that back rims hard leading to a long rebound and fast break bucket for the opposing team like Jae Crowder.

When did we trade Marcus Smart?

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 09:39:21 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Ranking in terms of how they will play this upcominging season;
Hayward
IT
Horford
Smart
Morris
Crowder
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Zizic
Yabusele
Ojeleye
Nader
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2017, 10:01:46 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I am deeply confused (and borderline disturbed) by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

There are many who think Smart is an All-NBA 1st Team level defender while Crowder may have fallen off a bit last year. I generally agree with the first part of my comment and, technically, defense is half the game.

Crowder is currently definitely a better 3-pt shooter, but it's not like he is able to create for himself or make plays at the rim any better than Smart. The playmaking and All-World defense (along with continued possible potential) tip the scales for me.

I disagree with the bold part, since Smart cannot do this in any capacity whatsoever.  Crowder isn't great at creating or making plays at the time, but he can occasionally.

All-World defense is also a bit of an exaggeration IMHO.  Smart's defense is overrated by Celtics fans.  It's very good don't get me wrong, but people speak like his the ultimate transcendent lock down defender, and he really isn't.

Against the Bulls it was Avery Bradley (despite giving up about 6 inches), not Marcus Smart, who consistently shut down Jimmy Butler.  Smart did a solid job on him, but Bradley really slowed him down A LOT while also scorching him on the other end of the floor as well.

As it stands I would rate smart as:
* Very good defender
* Very good rebounder (for position)
* Average playmaker
* Average athlete
* Below average ball handler
* Below average decision maker
* Poor shooter

And I don't rate his potential too highly since his shown little if any progression as a player after three seasons of NBA play.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2017, 10:25:31 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Ranking in terms of how they will play this upcominging season;
Hayward
IT
Horford
Smart
Morris
Crowder
Brown
Rozier
Tatum
Baynes
Theis
Zizic
Yabusele
Ojeleye
Nader

Hayward just got paid and is moving to a new team. IT was a top 5 player in the league this past year, as well as the incumbent primary ball handler. Also, he hasn't gotten paid. Either the Celtics are going to pay IT, or someone else will. Either way, he's getting his points again, even if it takes him a couple more shots.

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2017, 10:55:56 PM »

Offline nebist

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I guarantee you if Ainge and Stevens were only allowed to keep 1 of Smart or Crowder at the same contract # for the next X amount of years they would pick Smart without the slightest hesitation. Smart gives our team a legitimate edge and identity that is invaluable.  The guy might play harder than anyone else in the NBA. 

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2017, 11:01:02 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I guarantee you if Ainge and Stevens were only allowed to keep 1 of Smart or Crowder at the same contract # for the next X amount of years they would pick Smart without the slightest hesitation. Smart gives our team a legitimate edge and identity that is invaluable.  The guy might play harder than anyone else in the NBA.

I guarantee you are wrong.

There is a reason why Crowder has started consistently for Boston the past two years (despite us bringing in a #3 pick at his position in Jaylen Brown).

There is also a reason why Smart cannot get a start to save his life EXCEPT when somebody else is injured. 

Brad Stevens has already answered that question for you :)

Re: Rank the current Celtics (best to worst).
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2017, 11:04:52 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I am deeply confused (and borderline disturbed) by anybody who puts Marcus Smart above Jae Crowder on this list.

Aside from passing/playmaking I seriously do not think there is a single thing that Crowder isn't better at.

There are many who think Smart is an All-NBA 1st Team level defender while Crowder may have fallen off a bit last year. I generally agree with the first part of my comment and, technically, defense is half the game.

Crowder is currently definitely a better 3-pt shooter, but it's not like he is able to create for himself or make plays at the rim any better than Smart. The playmaking and All-World defense (along with continued possible potential) tip the scales for me.

I disagree with the bold part, since Smart cannot do this in any capacity whatsoever.  Crowder isn't great at creating or making plays at the time, but he can occasionally.

All-World defense is also a bit of an exaggeration IMHO.  Smart's defense is overrated by Celtics fans.  It's very good don't get me wrong, but people speak like his the ultimate transcendent lock down defender, and he really isn't.

Against the Bulls it was Avery Bradley (despite giving up about 6 inches), not Marcus Smart, who consistently shut down Jimmy Butler.  Smart did a solid job on him, but Bradley really slowed him down A LOT while also scorching him on the other end of the floor as well.

As it stands I would rate smart as:
* Very good defender
* Very good rebounder (for position)
* Average playmaker
* Average athlete
* Below average ball handler
* Below average decision maker
* Poor shooter

And I don't rate his potential too highly since his shown little if any progression as a player after three seasons of NBA play.
I agree.  Smarts defense is WAY overrated by Celtic fans.  He has trouble against quicker guards and he's a much better team defender than he is a man to man defender overall.  That's a far far cry from this all world defender that people make him out to be.  And no, defense isn't half the game.  Offense considerably more important from an individual standpoint.