Author Topic: IT vs. AI  (Read 3306 times)

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Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 06:43:30 PM »

Offline greece66

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There was a thread discussing a similar topic in Jan 2017. Maybe there have been more.

In any case, I put it here to check out what arguments were used back then.

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=88657.msg2224366#msg2224366

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 07:26:58 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I love how people can say "it's Iverson we're talking about," yet have nothing to back it up.

The stats say that IT's past season (entering his prime, no reason to think he can't sustain close to this level for a few more seasons) was in all likelihood better than Iverson's MVP season.

Iverson played defense. Compared to Iverson, Isaiah Thomas is a "nice little player".

Also, calling Iverson "a pretty dreadful scorer" just means you've never seen him play.

Is that so?

I'm not gonna get started on defense, because the guy cheated passing lanes for steals all the time because that was a stat. His actual team/individual D was NOT impressive. If you think it was, you either haven't watched him enough (at all?) or are a fanboy.

As for offense, you'd say a guy who posted eFG% of .448 in Philly (.452 for his career) and TS% of .513 (.518 career) is good? Maybe you're not into advanced shooting stats yet, so how about career shooting percentages of .425 and .313 from deep? Sound like a great scorer to you?

People got caught up on his handles and flashiness, but the guy was the epitome of a chucker.

IT's past season's shooting %'s would have all been career highs for Iverson. Yes AI scored more per game, but not per possession and definitely not efficiently enough to be considered a great scorer.

I'm sure there are more guys who could put up nearly 30ppg if they played 43 minutes a game and chucked 25 shots in that time.

The East was incredibly weak back then, so making the Finals isn't really all that impressive. You think Iverson could've overcame LeBron?

There's really nothing other than steals that Iverson can be proven better at than Thomas, scoring included.
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Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2017, 07:56:37 PM »

Offline moiso

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Iverson turned faking like he was trying on defense into an art form.

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2017, 08:59:01 PM »

Offline greece66

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With a  bit of manipulation you can make their numbers look similar.

But this ignores AI's awards, career length,and impact on bball. And I'm not even a fan.

Don't get me wrong, that IT's numbers are close to AI's is already a complement. But I can't imagine us having this convo was IT putting the same numbers wearing another jersey.

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2017, 09:22:46 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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With a  bit of manipulation you can make their numbers look similar.

But this ignores AI's awards, career length,and impact on bball. And I'm not even a fan.

Don't get me wrong, that IT's numbers are close to AI's is already a complement. But I can't imagine us having this convo was IT putting the same numbers wearing another jersey.

What's there to manipulate? The numbers are what they are.

And as for awards, that's like talking about practice. Who cares, right? Anyone who looks at his MVP season and Isaiah last year objectively would have to say IT had the better season. Awards and accolades are just popularity contests, nobody can rightfully say he was more valuable than say, Shaq or Duncan.

Surely we can have the same convo about other players on different teams if you'd like. We can compare Westbrook, Harden, Curry, etc. to AI as well. Without looking at them, I'd say he does not favor well against any of the aforementioned.
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Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2017, 10:43:09 PM »

Offline byennie

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With a  bit of manipulation you can make their numbers look similar.

But this ignores AI's awards, career length,and impact on bball. And I'm not even a fan.

Don't get me wrong, that IT's numbers are close to AI's is already a complement. But I can't imagine us having this convo was IT putting the same numbers wearing another jersey.

What's there to manipulate? The numbers are what they are.

And as for awards, that's like talking about practice. Who cares, right? Anyone who looks at his MVP season and Isaiah last year objectively would have to say IT had the better season. Awards and accolades are just popularity contests, nobody can rightfully say he was more valuable than say, Shaq or Duncan.

Surely we can have the same convo about other players on different teams if you'd like. We can compare Westbrook, Harden, Curry, etc. to AI as well. Without looking at them, I'd say he does not favor well against any of the aforementioned.

I don't necessarily disagree about IT last year (it *was* an MVP level season), but it's not black & white.

* Win shares and BPM and VORP are all virtually tied with Iverson's 2000-2001 season.

* Philly scored 95 ppg, Boston averaged 108 ppg, and those were representative of the league. It matters to shoulder that much of the load (33% vs 27% of scoring) and still win games.

* Philly's strategy was always play defense and let Iverson shoot. The whole league was not remotely focused on TS%.

* Philly won more games and went to the Finals, Boston did not.

* Iverson was definitely a better defender than IT, even if overrated. At least part of the reason he was able to gamble was by design, and leading the league in steals isn't a *bad* thing. He had a DRtg of 99 and his team won more games.

I'm super glad that IT's season is a comp for an MVP year from a Hall of Famer, but there's no reason to be smug over a couple of shooting efficiency stats.

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2017, 10:47:04 PM »

Offline byennie

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Iverson turned faking like he was trying on defense into an art form.

Iverson led the league in steals on a top-5 defense for most of a decade, while playing OVER 40 minutes per game. Yeah, he might have been overrated or gambled, but let's not get it twisted. He was doing something right on that end.

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2017, 11:06:27 PM »

Offline loco_91

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Call me in 10 years and we'll talk.

Also, if Kyrie took ITs spot, he'd put up those numbers too

If IT played w LBJ, he wouldn't score 30 a night

Remember who the real finals MVP was in 2016. Kyrie
Uhh, what? Kyrie took more shots than IT and scored less, so not sure what you're on about. I don't know if Kyrie would take more shots, because IT is the clear focal point of our offence and still takes less. However, IT would still be able to get his 28-30 with LBJ because he's more efficient and better at picking his spots.

However, AI was a step above these two. He dragged his teams with almost no help.

An interesting argument would be Curry vs AI

I think IT vs AI is closer than AI vs Curry. I'd rather have 1 Curry than 3 Iversons.

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2017, 11:50:16 PM »

Offline green_bballers13

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Call me in 10 years and we'll talk.

Also, if Kyrie took ITs spot, he'd put up those numbers too

If IT played w LBJ, he wouldn't score 30 a night

Remember who the real finals MVP was in 2016. Kyrie
Uhh, what? Kyrie took more shots than IT and scored less, so not sure what you're on about. I don't know if Kyrie would take more shots, because IT is the clear focal point of our offence and still takes less. However, IT would still be able to get his 28-30 with LBJ because he's more efficient and better at picking his spots.

However, AI was a step above these two. He dragged his teams with almost no help.

An interesting argument would be Curry vs AI

I think IT vs AI is closer than AI vs Curry. I'd rather have 1 Curry than 3 Iversons.

That's wild? Why?

Steph Curry is awesome. Iverson was awesome. Both awesome. You can parse through the best of the best, but Iverson was the quickest guy on the court and an in-game warrior. Steph Curry might be the best shooter ever. IT should be compared to either when he wins the MVP.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 11:57:21 PM by green_bballers13 »

Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 07:20:56 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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With a  bit of manipulation you can make their numbers look similar.

But this ignores AI's awards, career length,and impact on bball. And I'm not even a fan.

Don't get me wrong, that IT's numbers are close to AI's is already a complement. But I can't imagine us having this convo was IT putting the same numbers wearing another jersey.

What's there to manipulate? The numbers are what they are.

And as for awards, that's like talking about practice. Who cares, right? Anyone who looks at his MVP season and Isaiah last year objectively would have to say IT had the better season. Awards and accolades are just popularity contests, nobody can rightfully say he was more valuable than say, Shaq or Duncan.

Surely we can have the same convo about other players on different teams if you'd like. We can compare Westbrook, Harden, Curry, etc. to AI as well. Without looking at them, I'd say he does not favor well against any of the aforementioned.

I don't necessarily disagree about IT last year (it *was* an MVP level season), but it's not black & white.

* Win shares and BPM and VORP are all virtually tied with Iverson's 2000-2001 season.

* Philly scored 95 ppg, Boston averaged 108 ppg, and those were representative of the league. It matters to shoulder that much of the load (33% vs 27% of scoring) and still win games.

* Philly's strategy was always play defense and let Iverson shoot. The whole league was not remotely focused on TS%.

* Philly won more games and went to the Finals, Boston did not.

* Iverson was definitely a better defender than IT, even if overrated. At least part of the reason he was able to gamble was by design, and leading the league in steals isn't a *bad* thing. He had a DRtg of 99 and his team won more games.

I'm super glad that IT's season is a comp for an MVP year from a Hall of Famer, but there's no reason to be smug over a couple of shooting efficiency stats.

If I'm not mistaken, IT had a better WS and BPM, while AI had a higher VORP. You wanna say virtually tied, fine.

The pace was different then, and accordingly stats adjust for that. Isaiah plays in a faster pace but less minutes per game. Isaiah easily edges Iverson at 42.4 points per 100 possession and per-36 of 30.8 vs 39.3pp100 and 26.7p36.

Philly won 56 games, Boston won 53. Is that significant enough to point out? Would you classify one as a much more impressive measure of a season? Let's call that virtually tied.

Iverson did indeed have a 99 DRtg that season, but he also had bigs behind him like Motumbo, Ratliff, Mohammed (who all posted 95-96 DRtg). Isaiah's was much higher at 112, but his ORtg was an even greater distance from Iverson (122 vs 106).

I'm not exactly sure what I'm being smug about, but I find absolutely no statistical evidence that Iverson's best season was as good as Isaiah's 2016-17. IT is older (27 vs Iverson's 25yo season), but he's been gradually improving ever since his sophomore year (WS/48 from .114 to .234, his PER from 17.5 to 26.5, and his NetRtg from 0 to +10).
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Re: IT vs. AI
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2017, 07:31:30 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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Call me in 10 years and we'll talk.

Also, if Kyrie took ITs spot, he'd put up those numbers too

If IT played w LBJ, he wouldn't score 30 a night

Remember who the real finals MVP was in 2016. Kyrie
Uhh, what? Kyrie took more shots than IT and scored less, so not sure what you're on about. I don't know if Kyrie would take more shots, because IT is the clear focal point of our offence and still takes less. However, IT would still be able to get his 28-30 with LBJ because he's more efficient and better at picking his spots.

However, AI was a step above these two. He dragged his teams with almost no help.

An interesting argument would be Curry vs AI

I think IT vs AI is closer than AI vs Curry. I'd rather have 1 Curry than 3 Iversons.

That's wild? Why?

Steph Curry is awesome. Iverson was awesome. Both awesome. You can parse through the best of the best, but Iverson was the quickest guy on the court and an in-game warrior. Steph Curry might be the best shooter ever. IT should be compared to either when he wins the MVP.

Curry is definitely a better player than Iverson. I don't think that's debatable.

Why can't IT be compared to them? Way too much emphasis put on a pretty meaningless award. I get the "ring" argument, but not winning an award?

Is anyone really gonna say Allen Iverson was the best player in the NBA in 2001? Cmon now. He won an award that was voted on by the media. He was popular. Big deal.
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