ESPN: Kyrie no longer wants to play w/ Lebron = reason for request. trade soon?

[johnnygreen]

It is hard to understand why people can't  get behind bringing Kyrie Irving over.  I rate IT and Kyrie about even in terms of productivity right now.  Looking ahead, i think Kyrie would be a clear winner.

First is the contract. IT is a bargain this year but becomes a UFA who will be looking to command something close to Max $$$ starting next year.  Kyrie has two years left on his deal plus will be an RFA in the 3rd year meaning Boston can control his destiny for at least 3 years.

IT (As great as he has been for us) is undersized and 28  compared to Kyrie who is 4 to 6 inches taller and only 25.

IT might have a couple years of peak basketball left but this is a risky assumption. If you look at the career arc of PGs 6'1" and under, the results are pretty bleak in terms of rapid decline. Smaller PGs tend to peak at age 26 then rapidly decline.  Larger PGs peak at age 30. Great article here: Scroll half way downhttp://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/19525455/kevin-pelton-weekly-mailbag-including-point-guard-career-arcs.

Also Kyrie still has room to grow .... getting out from LBJs smothering control of the team and coming to play under one of the best coaches in the game.

I think Kyrie could be had without giving up either our LAL or BKLN picks.

Salaries need to match:

IT + CROWDER + SMART works
IT + CROWDER+ROZIER works

Put the Memphis or Clippers picks in if needed.

I am not sure Cleveland will do much better .  Phoenix may or may not be offering a combo of Bledsoe/Jackson or Bledsoe/Len. Not to many other teams have the space and right players to deal.

Is it an over pay for the Celtics?  Maybe. But there will always be an overpay when consolidating a roster with a 3 for 1 deal.  Crowder is a nice player, but fully redundant now on our roster.  Smart is one of my favorite Celtics but will be an RFA at the end of the year and could possibly command 20 million dollars plus (equal to Kyrie) for the Celtics to keep him.

Thus the losses in terms of what we pay out are not nearly as harsh as they seem.

There is a lot of room here to put together pieces for a trade.

Kyrie will be an unrestricted free agent after two years. That third year is a player option.

[ssspence]

I'd like to summarize the scenarios, assuming Gilbert's ego isn't too big to make the right basketball decision and considering a Cs trade if the value is more than others offer:

a) IT and Crowder for Kyrie ~~ a given for the Cs, but likely not enough for the Cavs.

b) IT, Crowder, and either Memphis 2019 1st or Cs 2018 1st ~~ Cs do it, but likely still not enough for Cavs.

c) IT, Crowder, and two of: Memphis 2019 1st, LAC 2019 1st, Cs 2018 1st, or Cs 2019 1st ~~ getting interesting, but Cavs are said to want a "blue chip" prospect now....

d) IT, Crowder, and Lakers pick ~~ interesting risk / reward for the Cs, depending on what happens with Lakers 2018 season and SAC's development post-Boogie. Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e) IT, Crowder, and one of Rozier, Zizic, or Yabu ~~ Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e)  IT, Crowder, and Nets pick ~~ Overpay for the Cs

wildcard) IT, Crowder, and Smart ~~ while i understand this isn't a popular sentiment, i believe Ainge would think long and hard about this. someone is going to overpay Marcus next summer. I question whether Cs really care to when you look at how their roster is shaping up.

[YoungOne87]

I'd like to summarize the scenarios, assuming Gilbert's ego isn't too big to make the right basketball decision and considering a Cs trade if the value is more than others offer:

a) IT and Crowder for Kyrie ~~ a given for the Cs, but likely not enough for the Cavs.

b) IT, Crowder, and either Memphis 2019 1st or Cs 2018 1st ~~ Cs do it, but likely still not enough for Cavs.

c) IT, Crowder, and two of: Memphis 2019 1st, LAC 2019 1st, Cs 2018 1st, or Cs 2019 1st ~~ getting interesting, but Cavs are said to want a "blue chip" prospect now....

d) IT, Crowder, and Lakers pick ~~ interesting risk / reward for the Cs, depending on what happens with Lakers 2018 season and SAC's development post-Boogie. Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e) IT, Crowder, and one of Rozier, Zizic, or Yabu ~~ Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e)  IT, Crowder, and Nets pick ~~ Overpay for the Cs

wildcard) IT, Crowder, and Smart ~~ while i understand this isn't a popular sentiment, i believe Ainge would think long and hard about this. someone is going to overpay Marcus next summer. I question whether Cs really care to when you look at how their roster is shaping up.

why would the cavs do that trade?

[johnnygreen]

This trade idea may boil down to the question that has been discussed for months now: Is Isaiah worthy of a max contract? If Danny thinks that he is, then the trade doesn't really make sense. However, if Danny has reservations about giving Thomas a max contract, then he should look into trading him now that his value is high for Irving.

[makaveli]

imagine if kyrie demanded a trade a bit earlier, could a kyrie for cp3 swap work, that trade would have been awsome for both teams...
good timing kyrie

[slamtheking]

I'd like to summarize the scenarios, assuming Gilbert's ego isn't too big to make the right basketball decision and considering a Cs trade if the value is more than others offer:

a) IT and Crowder for Kyrie ~~ a given for the Cs, but likely not enough for the Cavs.

b) IT, Crowder, and either Memphis 2019 1st or Cs 2018 1st ~~ Cs do it, but likely still not enough for Cavs.

c) IT, Crowder, and two of: Memphis 2019 1st, LAC 2019 1st, Cs 2018 1st, or Cs 2019 1st ~~ getting interesting, but Cavs are said to want a "blue chip" prospect now....

d) IT, Crowder, and Lakers pick ~~ interesting risk / reward for the Cs, depending on what happens with Lakers 2018 season and SAC's development post-Boogie. Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e) IT, Crowder, and one of Rozier, Zizic, or Yabu ~~ Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e)  IT, Crowder, and Nets pick ~~ Overpay for the Cs

wildcard) IT, Crowder, and Smart ~~ while i understand this isn't a popular sentiment, i believe Ainge would think long and hard about this. someone is going to overpay Marcus next summer. I question whether Cs really care to when you look at how their roster is shaping up.

I wouldn't assume any of these are a 'given' for the C's.

[aingeforthree]

He's 5 inches taller, better offensively, better defensively, and a better rebounder.

And consistently has proven that since he's been in the league by the way, not just a year like the stats you rave about.

What other stats do you need ? 5 inches, 25 yrs old, and only what, 18 & 20 M for the next two(Evan Turner type easy money)?

Not much left to be said, because those stats (verify them if needed) tell it all.

No, he's not better offensively or a better rebounder. How many times do we need to post the stats? IT4 is a more efficient, better offensive player and has been for years. Not just last year. For his career. Kyrie had a career year last year too, like a lot of guards.

I don't even know why you keep repeating the rebounding thing- Kyrie is a crap rebounder, who grabs about as IT4 despite the 5 inch advantage.

5 inches is huge in basketball, both defensively and in rebounding.

And yes, Kyrie is better at virtually EVERYTHING.

If it was close, the trade rumor would be IT4 for Irving, straight up, right ? Or if IT4 was better, it would be Kyrie + picks for IT4.


Instead, there's a reason the rumor consists of an all star, a starter, and a top pick in a loaded draft for Irving. It's because Irving is far better !

[YoungOne87]

He's 5 inches taller, better offensively, better defensively, and a better rebounder.

And consistently has proven that since he's been in the league by the way, not just a year like the stats you rave about.

What other stats do you need ? 5 inches, 25 yrs old, and only what, 18 & 20 M for the next two(Evan Turner type easy money)?

Not much left to be said, because those stats (verify them if needed) tell it all.

No, he's not better offensively or a better rebounder. How many times do we need to post the stats? IT4 is a more efficient, better offensive player and has been for years. Not just last year. For his career. Kyrie had a career year last year too, like a lot of guards.

I don't even know why you keep repeating the rebounding thing- Kyrie is a crap rebounder, who grabs about as IT4 despite the 5 inch advantage.

5 inches is huge in basketball, both defensively and in rebounding.

And yes, Kyrie is better at virtually EVERYTHING.

If it was close, the trade rumor would be IT4 for Irving, straight up, right ? Or if IT4 was better, it would be Kyrie + picks for IT4.


Instead, there's a reason the rumor consists of an all star, a starter, and a top pick in a loaded draft for Irving. It's because Irving is far better !

You are not taking the contract situation into account. Which is very important.

[ETNCeltics]

He's 5 inches taller, better offensively, better defensively, and a better rebounder.

And consistently has proven that since he's been in the league by the way, not just a year like the stats you rave about.

What other stats do you need ? 5 inches, 25 yrs old, and only what, 18 & 20 M for the next two(Evan Turner type easy money)?

Not much left to be said, because those stats (verify them if needed) tell it all.

No, he's not better offensively or a better rebounder. How many times do we need to post the stats? IT4 is a more efficient, better offensive player and has been for years. Not just last year. For his career. Kyrie had a career year last year too, like a lot of guards.

I don't even know why you keep repeating the rebounding thing- Kyrie is a crap rebounder, who grabs about as IT4 despite the 5 inch advantage.

5 inches is huge in basketball, both defensively and in rebounding.

And yes, Kyrie is better at virtually EVERYTHING.

If it was close, the trade rumor would be IT4 for Irving, straight up, right ? Or if IT4 was better, it would be Kyrie + picks for IT4.


Instead, there's a reason the rumor consists of an all star, a starter, and a top pick in a loaded draft for Irving. It's because Irving is far better !

IT only has one year left on his deal, KI has 2. That weights the value more towards Irving.

Still, you're right on trade terms if the 2 were valued equal. We all know IT + Crowder would make that a pretty fair trade if IT and KI were viewed as equal players, but most people outside of Celtic nation view Irving as the better player.

Ainge is the one who has to know. How would Horford, Hayward, and the others feel about the swap? If they have reservations about KI, and love IT, then it's a trade you can't make.

My perception of IT is that the rest of the roster loves him, and something significant would have to happen for Ainge to truly consider trading him. For better or worse, I think we're rolling with Isaiah Thomas for the next 3 or 4 years.

[celticsclay]

Latest in the story: More back and forth between Lebron and Kyrie. Does anyone really think these two will start the season together?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20154792/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-denies-reported-role-kyrie-irving-trade-demand-saga

[aingeforthree]

He's 5 inches taller, better offensively, better defensively, and a better rebounder.

And consistently has proven that since he's been in the league by the way, not just a year like the stats you rave about.

What other stats do you need ? 5 inches, 25 yrs old, and only what, 18 & 20 M for the next two(Evan Turner type easy money)?

Not much left to be said, because those stats (verify them if needed) tell it all.

No, he's not better offensively or a better rebounder. How many times do we need to post the stats? IT4 is a more efficient, better offensive player and has been for years. Not just last year. For his career. Kyrie had a career year last year too, like a lot of guards.

I don't even know why you keep repeating the rebounding thing- Kyrie is a crap rebounder, who grabs about as IT4 despite the 5 inch advantage.

5 inches is huge in basketball, both defensively and in rebounding.

And yes, Kyrie is better at virtually EVERYTHING.

If it was close, the trade rumor would be IT4 for Irving, straight up, right ? Or if IT4 was better, it would be Kyrie + picks for IT4.


Instead, there's a reason the rumor consists of an all star, a starter, and a top pick in a loaded draft for Irving. It's because Irving is far better !

You are not taking the contract situation into account. Which is very important.

I'm taking the deal. I'm parting with IT4, Crowder, Yabusele (heck no on Rozier, he's a keeper), & the Laker pick (if that is even the deal, I've heard BKN pick). It's the entire situation that fits us perfectly.

Irving and his contract puts us in a far better position and upgrades the roster immediately. You will also have a year to add help to your championship team with a Baynes type contract.  Only because you won't have to "get that brinks truck" ready for someone who doesn't deserve it. You can wait a year on that.

By that time, Irving is 27 and guys like Brown & Tatum are starting to find their games. Maybe even Zizic is starting to get ahead of the learning curve. Hayward will be there solid as can be, with Horford maybe the one you will need to replace eventually. Considering your stacked team, and Horford's huge contract, you're set in place to add another stud to Irving, Hayward, Brown, & Tatum once Horford's bones get old.

Win now, and win later. That's what this trade provides. Gives Horford his window and then allows you to still develop the young core of Irving (yes, only 25 & still developing), Hayward, Smart, Rozier, Tatum, Brown, Zizic, and the BKN PICK.

Setup perfectly.

[dysgenic]

I feel many are underrating Kyrie Irvin.

I give up either Brooklyn or LAL plus 2  valuable players in order to get him.

[Surferdad]

Latest in the story: More back and forth between Lebron and Kyrie. Does anyone really think these two will start the season together?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20154792/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-denies-reported-role-kyrie-irving-trade-demand-saga

I still think it's possible, and I don't mind being alone in that view.

[ssspence]

I'd like to summarize the scenarios, assuming Gilbert's ego isn't too big to make the right basketball decision and considering a Cs trade if the value is more than others offer:

a) IT and Crowder for Kyrie ~~ a given for the Cs, but likely not enough for the Cavs.

b) IT, Crowder, and either Memphis 2019 1st or Cs 2018 1st ~~ Cs do it, but likely still not enough for Cavs.

c) IT, Crowder, and two of: Memphis 2019 1st, LAC 2019 1st, Cs 2018 1st, or Cs 2019 1st ~~ getting interesting, but Cavs are said to want a "blue chip" prospect now....

d) IT, Crowder, and Lakers pick ~~ interesting risk / reward for the Cs, depending on what happens with Lakers 2018 season and SAC's development post-Boogie. Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e) IT, Crowder, and one of Rozier, Zizic, or Yabu ~~ Cavs say yes, Cs hesitant.

e)  IT, Crowder, and Nets pick ~~ Overpay for the Cs

wildcard) IT, Crowder, and Smart ~~ while i understand this isn't a popular sentiment, i believe Ainge would think long and hard about this. someone is going to overpay Marcus next summer. I question whether Cs really care to when you look at how their roster is shaping up.

I wouldn't assume any of these are a 'given' for the C's.

If you buy for a moment that the Cs wouldn't trade Thomas and Crowder (with nothing else attached) for Irving, you're a homer -- plain and simple.

[aingeforthree]

I feel many are underrating Kyrie Irvin.

I give up either Brooklyn or LAL plus 2  valuable players in order to get him.

Not sure why.

Irving/Rozier
Brown/Smart
Hayward/Tatum
Horford/Morris
Baynes/Zizic

So young, 10 deep and then some, with a Brooklyn pick waiting in the wings for yet another 20 yr old talent. Easy move