Author Topic: Idea - Thomas for Irving  (Read 3787 times)

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Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2017, 10:19:17 PM »

Online saltlover

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2017, 10:19:18 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.


I don't agree that Isaiah was traded to a good team in Boston at all. He was traded to a fairly average team and lit a fire under them with his scoring.

I should have said a good team compared to the Cavaliers when it was just Irving.  I'll take that correction, it was an average team the Celtics but Cavaliers were horrible when it was just Irving.

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2017, 10:25:36 PM »

Offline max215

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

Notice how nobody arguing Kyrie is significantly better (or even better at all) has cited any numbers to support the position. I wonder why?
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2017, 10:28:53 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

If you're going to build a team right now, which point guard do you take?  Irving is the better choice I feel, younger, more control in contact, say a push on skill levels cause stats can be skewed for both players.  Plus do you want to give Thomas a max deal at 30, we already have one over pay in Horford after the age of 31

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2017, 10:32:08 PM »

Offline eja117

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Cavs would be pretty dumb to do that trade

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2017, 10:35:10 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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IT4. I love you man, but Kyrie is bigger, younger and possibly as good as you, if not better.

I think this is an easy decision for me. If we can get this done, we should. I understand that we have to give up this much, but hey, we gotta match salaries and this is who we got.

Although, I won't give up the Brooklyn and Lakers/Kings pick. I'd give two of ours, heck, maybe three of ours. But none of the lottery ones.
"The Boston Celtics are not a basketball team, they are a way of life."

- Red


Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2017, 10:43:00 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Thomas was better than Irving last year but Irving has more value in a trade and given I don't think Boston is currently a true contender I would make the trade as Irving fits the Hayward, Brown, Tatum timeline better and probably means Boston can keep Smart (assuming he isn't a part of the trade for salary).
Ohio State 2014/15 National Champions.

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2017, 10:45:25 PM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

Red = demonstrably and inarguably false
Blue = iffy, at best

Unlike you, I actually have evidence to back up my claims.

http://bkref.com/tiny/fvlZt

http://on.nba.com/2kxUgwM

All points taken, but I want to add a few things.

Kyrie is, as mentioned, just 25 years old. His next max contract, he will be at around 27-28, still very young, and in his prime age. Isaiah would be maxed out while he's turning 30, and we'd probably have to keep paying him a lot of money until he's 34-35, and probably diminished.

Kyrie is also under contract for at least 2 more years at around $20 million. Even if it's just one year, we save some money, and that could be huge. That could be the difference between the taxpayer MLE and the non-Tax (need to be fact checked on that, but just pointing it out. Salt, you here?). And who knows, that could be a player we could use for our 2018-19 run.

Moving forward, Kyrie is the better option. He could or he could not be better than IT, but his youth, size and his contract status makes this decision fair.
"The Boston Celtics are not a basketball team, they are a way of life."

- Red


Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2017, 10:45:31 PM »

Online saltlover

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

If you're going to build a team right now, which point guard do you take?  Irving is the better choice I feel, younger, more control in contact, say a push on skill levels cause stats can be skewed for both players.  Plus do you want to give Thomas a max deal at 30, we already have one over pay in Horford after the age of 31

Thomas' age and pending contract situation have nothing to do with it.  Someone argued that Irving was a better player than Thomas, and his first piece of evidence was that Irving is a more efficient scorer, which simply isn't true.  IT has had a higher true shooting percentage (single best measure of scoring efficiency) in five of six seasons.  In fact, IT's career average TS% is better than Kyrie's best season.  IT is a phenomenally efficient scorer for someone of his shooting volume.  To argue otherwise, which is how we got to this point, is simply wrong.  Bringing in age is completely shifting the argument.

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2017, 10:45:42 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

Notice how nobody arguing Kyrie is significantly better (or even better at all) has cited any numbers to support the position. I wonder why?

I'll give you all the stats you want.  Here you go. 


Total stats Irving has more rebounds, steals, and blocks.  While Thomas has more points, games played and assist.  Irving had better FG% and 3FG%, Thomas a better FT%.

They also list the playoff stats as while.


http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kyrie_irving_vs_isaiah_thomas.htm

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2017, 10:46:02 PM »

Offline max215

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Thomas was better than Irving last year but Irving has more value in a trade and given I don't think Boston is currently a true contender I would make the trade as Irving fits the Hayward, Brown, Tatum timeline better and probably means Boston can keep Smart (assuming he isn't a part of the trade for salary).

This is a reasonable pro-Irving take. I still don't think either side would do it.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2017, 10:46:48 PM »

Offline max215

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

Notice how nobody arguing Kyrie is significantly better (or even better at all) has cited any numbers to support the position. I wonder why?

I'll give you all the stats you want.  Here you go. 

Overall regular season stats over a career, Irving takes points, assist, rebounding, steals, blocks.

Total stats Irving has more rebounds, steals, and blocks.  While Thomas has more points, games played and assist.  Irving had better FG% and 3FG%, Thomas a better FT%.

They also list the playoff stats as while.


http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kyrie_irving_vs_isaiah_thomas.htm

Sure, let's totally ignore context.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2017, 10:51:48 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

Notice how nobody arguing Kyrie is significantly better (or even better at all) has cited any numbers to support the position. I wonder why?

I'll give you all the stats you want.  Here you go. 

Overall regular season stats over a career, Irving takes points, assist, rebounding, steals, blocks.

Total stats Irving has more rebounds, steals, and blocks.  While Thomas has more points, games played and assist.  Irving had better FG% and 3FG%, Thomas a better FT%.

They also list the playoff stats as while.


http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kyrie_irving_vs_isaiah_thomas.htm

Sure, let's totally ignore context.

How am I ignoring the context?  You asked for numbers and I found a side by side comparison on numbers. 

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2017, 11:00:10 PM »

Offline max215

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

Thomas scores more efficiently than Irving, and at a higher volume.  The defense keys in on IT, and he is still more efficient.  Irving has LeBron on the court, and is less efficient.  Thomas was unquestionably the better scorer last year, both in volume and efficiency, and virtually every metric, traditional and advanced, confirms that.

Maybe Irving should be the better player, given his size advantage and legitimately terrific handle that embarrasses people, but for whatever reason, he's hasn't been.  Personally I think the most overlooked fact is that IT gets to the free throw line twice as offen per shot attempt, which helps boost his efficiency tremendously.  His ability to draw contact in the lane, and now from 3-point range as well, is something that Kyrie doesn't have, and while it doesn't always make the highlight reals, it's truly valuable.

And Kyrie should be a better defender, but he's not.  He's arguably as much of a liability as IT, and that's due to effort, not physical limitations. It's past time for him to know how to play at both ends of the court.

Notice how nobody arguing Kyrie is significantly better (or even better at all) has cited any numbers to support the position. I wonder why?

I'll give you all the stats you want.  Here you go. 

Overall regular season stats over a career, Irving takes points, assist, rebounding, steals, blocks.

Total stats Irving has more rebounds, steals, and blocks.  While Thomas has more points, games played and assist.  Irving had better FG% and 3FG%, Thomas a better FT%.

They also list the playoff stats as while.


http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kyrie_irving_vs_isaiah_thomas.htm

Sure, let's totally ignore context.

How am I ignoring the context?  You asked for numbers and I found a side by side comparison on numbers.

Irving was handed a team the minute he entered the league; Thomas was not. If you look at per-minute numbers, Thomas' career production exceeds Irving's (pace-adjusted, their numbers are nearly identical). Meanwhile, listing 3P, FG, and FT% is highly misleading, because it doesn't account for distributions. Thomas is elite at getting to the line, so his efficiency actually greatly exceeds Irving's. The faults of traditional counting stats...
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Idea - Thomas for Irving
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2017, 11:01:16 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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Way, WAY too much to give up.  Irving is not that much better than Thomas.

ummm yes he is

Care to expand at all?

- more efficient scorer
- possibly best ball handler/dribbler of this generation..maybe of all time
- NBA champion - knows what it takes to win a title at just 25.
- 5 inches taller. Better at getting in passing lanes and disrupting opposing offenses.
- better rebounder
- more proven clutch shooter
- better pulling up off dribble

you could argue that having IT4 at 7 million  season is better than having Kyrie at 20 mill a season, but if you're arguing IT4 is a better player then you are delusional and don't really know basketball.

2017 stats:

Kyrie Irving:
25.2 PPG
3.2 RPG
5.8 APG
.53 eFG%

Isaiah Thomas:
28.9 PPG
2.7 RPG
5.9 APG
.54 eFG%

Im not sure where did you get the Kyrie is a "much better scorer", nor a "much better rebounder" narrative when their number are quite close. Best ball-handler, sure. But is he really a winner? Couldn't take his team to the playoffs before Lebron arrived. IT, meanwhile took a bottom 5 team to the playoffs and the Celtics are slowly improving to a powerhouse team.

Robert Horry is a 7x champion and is just as clutch as Kyrie. I guess he's a better player than both of them.

First of all Thomas's stats on scoring are of course going to be better.  He was the only true scorer on the team, stats can lie.  Irving had to share the ball with James and Love both guys that can drop 20 points easy daily.

When it was simply Irving of course he didn't take them to the playoffs, the rest of the team blew.  Thomas got traded to a good overall team needed help.

That's not the main point. Irving is only a second option, but his eFG% is still lesser than Thomas who were carrying the whole offense of the team. Kyrie's highest scoring season is last year, where he is the second option. Before Lebron came, he's the primary option of the team, only averaging 18.5, 22.5 and 20.8 PPG respectively. So being "second option" with Lebron is invalid since Kyrie is the Cav's primary option on crunch time while Lebron is giving him open looks.

IT, on the other hand had to create for himself and his team mates because all the defensive attention goes to him.