Ray Allen to (still mad) Celtic fans: "Get over it! ... I'll always be a Celtic"

[Moranis]

(remember the prior year a healthy Heat beat a healthy Celtics team in 5 games).

You mean the team that had an injured Shaq, a mostly injured Jermaine O'Neal, and Rondo playing with one arm?

Yeah, your idea of a healthy Celtics team doesn't hold water. You're an odd individual.

JO and Rondo both played around the same or more mpg in that series than they did in the regular season.  Shaq played in less than 40 games all year, he wasn't really to be relied upon.  But since bit players matter, Haslem played 3 minutes in 1 game in the series and Big Z missed a game entirely.  But hey I guess the lesser players from the Heat don't count either (even though in the Heat's last 11 playoff games that season, Haslem played in all 11 games and ended up with the 4th most minutes in those 2 series).  The main components of each team were healthy and the Heat won in 5.  Without Bosh the following year, the two teams were a lot closer, which gave this fan base a false sense of hope, but the run was truly over after the loss to the Lakers in the 2010 Finals as Boston had no real chance to beat the Heat with their Big 3 healthy.  They were just younger and better.  Just a shame KG, Allen, and PP were so old when they came together, as they could have been something special in their prime (and by special I mean a dynasty as that 08 team was a truly special team).

You didn't know this information prior to making your original argument.  So you literally just googled a lot of info to support an inaccurate stance that was just intended to cause irritation.  Does that not seem at least mildly pathological to you? I'm being dead serious here, interest in your level of insight

Of course I knew most of that information as I had the series stats up (on bball-ref) when I made my previous post (the one a small part was taken of that is the first post in this chain - obviously in my second post I had to look up the rest of Haslem's playoff numbers, but I knew Haslem was an integral player on those teams).  I knew some of the lesser players missed some time (like Haslem, Big Z, and Shaq), but series aren't won on lesser players, they are won on the main components.  I don't just post things out of bum or go off memory.  I actually have information and facts on hand.

So no insight?

no insight to what?  My position was pretty clearly stated in this thread, that Boston was no longer a contender when Ray Allen left and the fan base was given a false sense that Boston was because Rose got hurt and Bosh was injured and played in just 3 games in the 7 game series.  That is a position that granath and others have shared in this thread (and granath and I are often on the opposite sides of topics).

Miami wasn't a rival to Boston because Miami was just better.  The teams played two series against each other.  Miami won the first time in 5 and the second time without its 3rd best player for much of the series in 7.  That was Boston's last hurrah in a strike shortened season.  Boston was done as a contender then.  It is basically undisputable as the following season without Allen, Boston was 41-40 and lost to the Knicks in the first round of the playoffs.  So unless you guys all think that Allen was the man that made the team tick and without him the team fell apart, you pretty much have to agree with that statement or you are just kidding yourselves.

[Moranis]

Try to take the sports fandom out of it, and inject more of the "business".

Say your boss comes in, and says you're fired, or you're being transferred against your will to a really undesirable location.  You tell your family, and then your boss comes back and says "nevermind, we can't do that after all."  Four months later, you get a job offer from a rival company, that promises you a better standard of living than you had previously, and which really seems to embrace and respect you and what you can do for the organization.

How many of us say, "Even though my current employer tried to terminate me, I'm still loyal, and would never join a rival company"?

I wouldn't, and I suspect the vast majority of Celtics fans -- or people in general -- wouldn't, either.

To continue to put this into terms people would understand (and ignoring the 'fired' aspect because that isn't at all relevant), you left out the part about money. If your current employer then offered you $100,000 to stay and a clause in your contract that said you couldn't be transferred, but you chose to go to another rival organization for half the money, that would be seen as foolish and your family would probably be pretty upset with you.

But that isn't really the point. I understand Ray's decision; I don't hate him for it; but, I don't think he has any right to tell fans to get over it. He left on bad terms. I agree with Ogaju's response - fans make players. You don't see the world's best lacrosse or field hockey players making any kind-of money. He chose his bed - it was probably best for his career - but now he has to lie in it.

Of course winning is a big part of sports and Boston was done as a winner (at least it related to Allen's career arc) and Miami was not. 

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Saruman decided to join the dark lord Sauron because he thought it was the best decision at the time. After the ring was destroyed, was Middle Earth supposed to honor him because of his previous years of being good?

In the same way, Ray Allen joined the Heat because he thought that was the best decision at the time. That's his choice. Cool. Now, it just so happened that real life doesn't always work like the books/movies and in real life, the proverbial and literal ring fell in the hands of the dark lord Riley/Lebron. It sucks but them's the breaks. When it's all said and done though, Saruman can't expect a hero's welcome when he goes back to the Shire. Maybe if he fought beside us even when the temptation of the ring was great, but no, he folded. That's the difference between SaRayman and Kevin Gandalf.

I think I might've taken this analogy too far.

Love this, LilRip! TP. I love LOTR, and you definitely didn't take the analogy too far, especially when you consider that "Sauron" and "LeBron" basically rhyme.

[droopdog7]

I had no issues with Ray then.  Now, I just wish he could move on as much as the fans.  No need for any of this.  The man is right, he was an integral part of winning the Celts #17 and that should not be ignored.  As for him leaving?  There were plenty of reasons for him to do so, not the least of which was him winning another title (and making one of the memorable threes in NBA history).  Beyond that, he could see AB pushing to take his spot and he hated Rondo (as I probably would have too).

Just get over it Ray.  Plenty of fans respect what you did.

[KGs Knee]

Just get over it Ray.  Plenty of fans respect what you did.

I certainly respect what Allen did while he was here, and can respect and appreciate what he accomplished in his career. Ray was a first ballot HOF'er. He was an integral part of Banner 17.

But I don't hold him in the same esteem I do Pierce and KG. Ironically enough, I hold him in about the same esteem I do Rondo; someone who had some nice season for Boston and helped the team win a title, and almost a second. But I don't revere him.

Ray could have been revered if he stayed, but he didn't, so he isn't.

[celticsclay]

The main components of each team were healthy and the Heat won in 5.   

This is a flat out lie, and you know it. Stop misconstruing the facts.

Rondo had a dislocated elbow, that isn't just some non-factor. It was a death blow to the Celtics chances in that series.

No wonder everyone gives you a hard time, you say the dumbest things.

Rondo was the 4th player on the Celtics.  The 4th player on the Heat, played 3 minutes in the entire series.

Worst post ever? Like seriously....

So just to decipher the latest from Moranis here in 2010-2011
Rajon Rondo led the team in minutes played (played 6 more minutes a game than KG)
Led the team in assists at 11.2 (next was Pierce at 3.3)
Led the team in steals
Was the best rebounding guard at 4.4 per game
Was the 5th leading scorer
For the year he averaged a double double at 10.6ppg, 11.2 assists (second in entire league), 4.4 rebounds and 2.3 steals (second in entire league) and made the all star team.

You have called him the 4th best player on the team for some made up reason to try and make an argument.

Udonis Haslem averaged 8 points and 8 rebounds this season and nothing else and played 11 minutes less per game than Rondo. He was tied for 4th on the Heat in minutes played and was barely ahead of Mario Chalmers. He obviously was not in contention for any all-star team or leading the league in any category.

Trying to lump them in together as the 4th best player on the team is ignorant and obnoxious and it lowers the discourse of the board. I really wonder if you are just laughing and trying to agitate people on here with these kinds of comments. However myself, and others that have noticed it, are left to wonder what your true intentions are with some of this stuff. It certainly isn't just to share your legitimate opinions on Celtics basketball.

I also want to give TP's to all the people that have stood up and pointed out the ridiculousness of this routine because the board is a better place in my humble opinion when we call people out on intentional attempts to agitate.

[celticsclay]

The main components of each team were healthy and the Heat won in 5.   

This is a flat out lie, and you know it. Stop misconstruing the facts.

Rondo had a dislocated elbow, that isn't just some non-factor. It was a death blow to the Celtics chances in that series.

No wonder everyone gives you a hard time, you say the dumbest things.

TP KGK

[tarheelsxxiii]

(remember the prior year a healthy Heat beat a healthy Celtics team in 5 games).

You mean the team that had an injured Shaq, a mostly injured Jermaine O'Neal, and Rondo playing with one arm?

Yeah, your idea of a healthy Celtics team doesn't hold water. You're an odd individual.

JO and Rondo both played around the same or more mpg in that series than they did in the regular season.  Shaq played in less than 40 games all year, he wasn't really to be relied upon.  But since bit players matter, Haslem played 3 minutes in 1 game in the series and Big Z missed a game entirely.  But hey I guess the lesser players from the Heat don't count either (even though in the Heat's last 11 playoff games that season, Haslem played in all 11 games and ended up with the 4th most minutes in those 2 series).  The main components of each team were healthy and the Heat won in 5.  Without Bosh the following year, the two teams were a lot closer, which gave this fan base a false sense of hope, but the run was truly over after the loss to the Lakers in the 2010 Finals as Boston had no real chance to beat the Heat with their Big 3 healthy.  They were just younger and better.  Just a shame KG, Allen, and PP were so old when they came together, as they could have been something special in their prime (and by special I mean a dynasty as that 08 team was a truly special team).

You didn't know this information prior to making your original argument.  So you literally just googled a lot of info to support an inaccurate stance that was just intended to cause irritation.  Does that not seem at least mildly pathological to you? I'm being dead serious here, interest in your level of insight

Of course I knew most of that information as I had the series stats up (on bball-ref) when I made my previous post (the one a small part was taken of that is the first post in this chain - obviously in my second post I had to look up the rest of Haslem's playoff numbers, but I knew Haslem was an integral player on those teams).  I knew some of the lesser players missed some time (like Haslem, Big Z, and Shaq), but series aren't won on lesser players, they are won on the main components.  I don't just post things out of bum or go off memory.  I actually have information and facts on hand.

So no insight?

no insight to what?  My position was pretty clearly stated in this thread, that Boston was no longer a contender when Ray Allen left and the fan base was given a false sense that Boston was because Rose got hurt and Bosh was injured and played in just 3 games in the 7 game series.  That is a position that granath and others have shared in this thread (and granath and I are often on the opposite sides of topics).

Miami wasn't a rival to Boston because Miami was just better.  The teams played two series against each other.  Miami won the first time in 5 and the second time without its 3rd best player for much of the series in 7.  That was Boston's last hurrah in a strike shortened season.  Boston was done as a contender then.  It is basically undisputable as the following season without Allen, Boston was 41-40 and lost to the Knicks in the first round of the playoffs.  So unless you guys all think that Allen was the man that made the team tick and without him the team fell apart, you pretty much have to agree with that statement or you are just kidding yourselves.

Confirmed, and unrelated to the content of your posts.

You demonstrate a clear history of passive-aggressive trolling.  When directly questioned about it, you attempt to avoid the question by adding more and more information to your "point," which is nothing more than a persistent, veiled attempt to undercut the Celtics.

Personally, I don't care -- have at it.  But it derails potentially interesting threads for others.  I brought up the question of insight for your sake (and others who are generally interest in the topic), not mine.   If you are aware of this, I think you're capable of enjoying the forum without it.  If you're unaware, I assure you that it's true and not beneficial for anyone.

[Granath]

Its odd to carry on with passively undercutting the Celtics on a Celtics forum after being called out on it several times.  That would affect most people enough to persuade them to stop, maybe save an occasional reactive split or two.

I don't disagree with you on that. And Moronis is being his usual self of trying to to manipulate the truth when he compares Rondo's importance to Haslem. It's a head-shakingly bad comparison to make.

HOWEVER...his overall point isn't wrong. In the 2010-2011 series Rondo played 35 minutes per game. He averaged about the same points and rebounds that he did in the regular season and only his assists were down. Injured? Yes and that had some influence on the series. But Miami by that time was the better team and a healthy Rondo doesn't change that. Perhaps a healthy Rondo, a healthy Shaq and some luck changes that. But injuries tend to happen to older teams and the Cs were fading badly. The end was neigh.

Moreover, you can't point to Rondo being injured in 2011 and then dismiss Bosh being injured in 2012 and think that would have been a close series if Bosh played. The Cs in 2012 were *exceptionally* fortunate. It was a strike shortened season. Players were healthy. Bosh was hurt. And Miami still won. That tells you everything you need to know. It was never going to get any more in favor of the Cs than that and they still couldn't do it. The window had already closed...and that was proven even more by the following season.

Allen realized this, had little loyalty because Danny had already attempted to trade him and he wanted another ring. Moving to Miami would have been the natural decision to make. It's a free world and a fan is free to hate him for it. But it makes little sense to do so. 

[mutineer33]

Not sure there is anything to get over.  Ray Allen was a great player who spent most of his career as a hired gun.  He made numerous huge contributions in his time here, and those contributions should be appreciated.  There is no banner 17 without Ray Allen.

However, he had a chance to be an all time Celtic great in terms of fan popularity.  He forfeited this chance by CHOOSING to join our arch rivals ... for LESS money.  The "it's a business argument" might have held water if it was the case that the Celtics were not willing to pay him ... but the opposite was true. He took less money to go to the heat.

Ray Allen ... hired gun ... thank you for your contributions while here.  But as an alltime beloved Celtic ... you do not rate with Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, and so many before them who bled Celtic Green.  Don't blame the fans; this was YOUR choice.

[Moranis]

The main components of each team were healthy and the Heat won in 5.   

This is a flat out lie, and you know it. Stop misconstruing the facts.

Rondo had a dislocated elbow, that isn't just some non-factor. It was a death blow to the Celtics chances in that series.

No wonder everyone gives you a hard time, you say the dumbest things.

Rondo was the 4th player on the Celtics.  The 4th player on the Heat, played 3 minutes in the entire series.

Worst post ever? Like seriously....

So just to decipher the latest from Moranis here in 2010-2011
Rajon Rondo led the team in minutes played (played 6 more minutes a game than KG)
Led the team in assists at 11.2 (next was Pierce at 3.3)
Led the team in steals
Was the best rebounding guard at 4.4 per game
Was the 5th leading scorer
For the year he averaged a double double at 10.6ppg, 11.2 assists (second in entire league), 4.4 rebounds and 2.3 steals (second in entire league) and made the all star team.

You have called him the 4th best player on the team for some made up reason to try and make an argument.

Udonis Haslem averaged 8 points and 8 rebounds this season and nothing else and played 11 minutes less per game than Rondo. He was tied for 4th on the Heat in minutes played and was barely ahead of Mario Chalmers. He obviously was not in contention for any all-star team or leading the league in any category.

Trying to lump them in together as the 4th best player on the team is ignorant and obnoxious and it lowers the discourse of the board. I really wonder if you are just laughing and trying to agitate people on here with these kinds of comments. However myself, and others that have noticed it, are left to wonder what your true intentions are with some of this stuff. It certainly isn't just to share your legitimate opinions on Celtics basketball.

I also want to give TP's to all the people that have stood up and pointed out the ridiculousness of this routine because the board is a better place in my humble opinion when we call people out on intentional attempts to agitate.

Rondo was behind PP, KG, and RA in WS, WS/48, VORP, BPM in the 10-11 season.  He did have a better PER than RA, but that is the only overall advanced metric he wasn't behind the big 3 during the 10/11 season.  Rondo was an excellent passer and a + defender.  He was also a + rebounder for his position, but he was a pretty poor shooter (even that year which was one of his better ones).  He only generated 1.07 points per shot. 

Rondo was the 4th best player on that team.  This isn't some revelation.  The following season he had passed Allen as the 3rd best player, but the year Boston lost in 5 (i.e. 2011), Rondo was still the 4th best player.  He was also a better player than Haslem, but Boston got 36 mpg from Rondo, Miami got 3 minutes total from Haslem and Haslem was a pretty important rebounder for the Heat during their runs, as they really had no one aside from him and Bosh that consistently grabbed boards from the big positions (James and Wade were obviously very good rebounding wings, but not bigs).

EDIT: At the end of the day you don't win or lose series based on the play of your 4th best player, you win or lose series based on the play of your top dogs and how they compare to the top dogs of the team you are playing (with the slight caveat that if your top dogs are just about even with your opponents top dogs then the role players might turn a series).  Miami's Big 3 was just better than Boston's Big 3 during the 11 and 12 seasons (which are the only 2 seasons where each team had their "big 3").  Thus, Miami was the better team and that clearly bore out in the playoffs.

[celticsclay]

The main components of each team were healthy and the Heat won in 5.   

This is a flat out lie, and you know it. Stop misconstruing the facts.

Rondo had a dislocated elbow, that isn't just some non-factor. It was a death blow to the Celtics chances in that series.

No wonder everyone gives you a hard time, you say the dumbest things.

Rondo was the 4th player on the Celtics.  The 4th player on the Heat, played 3 minutes in the entire series.

Worst post ever? Like seriously....

So just to decipher the latest from Moranis here in 2010-2011
Rajon Rondo led the team in minutes played (played 6 more minutes a game than KG)
Led the team in assists at 11.2 (next was Pierce at 3.3)
Led the team in steals
Was the best rebounding guard at 4.4 per game
Was the 5th leading scorer
For the year he averaged a double double at 10.6ppg, 11.2 assists (second in entire league), 4.4 rebounds and 2.3 steals (second in entire league) and made the all star team.

You have called him the 4th best player on the team for some made up reason to try and make an argument.

Udonis Haslem averaged 8 points and 8 rebounds this season and nothing else and played 11 minutes less per game than Rondo. He was tied for 4th on the Heat in minutes played and was barely ahead of Mario Chalmers. He obviously was not in contention for any all-star team or leading the league in any category.

Trying to lump them in together as the 4th best player on the team is ignorant and obnoxious and it lowers the discourse of the board. I really wonder if you are just laughing and trying to agitate people on here with these kinds of comments. However myself, and others that have noticed it, are left to wonder what your true intentions are with some of this stuff. It certainly isn't just to share your legitimate opinions on Celtics basketball.

I also want to give TP's to all the people that have stood up and pointed out the ridiculousness of this routine because the board is a better place in my humble opinion when we call people out on intentional attempts to agitate.

Rondo was behind PP, KG, and RA in WS, WS/48, VORP, BPM in the 10-11 season.  He did have a better PER than RA, but that is the only overall advanced metric he wasn't behind the big 3 during the 10/11 season.  Rondo was an excellent passer and a + defender.  He was also a + rebounder for his position, but he was a pretty poor shooter (even that year which was one of his better ones).  He only generated 1.07 points per shot. 

Rondo was the 4th best player on that team.  This isn't some revelation.  The following season he had passed Allen as the 3rd best player, but the year Boston lost in 5 (i.e. 2011), Rondo was still the 4th best player.  He was also a better player than Haslem, but Boston got 36 mpg from Rondo, Miami got 3 minutes total from Haslem and Haslem was a pretty important rebounder for the Heat during their runs, as they really had no one aside from him and Bosh that consistently grabbed boards from the big positions (James and Wade were obviously very good rebounding wings, but not bigs).

Polish your Turd Moranis. You made a horrible attempt at a point and everyone called you on it for a reason. Rondo was an all-star a much more important player than Haslem. Keep digging your own grave here and make more people get frustrated with you. As Granath pointed out this is a "head shakingly bad" comparison. Just stop with it...

[Moranis]

Its odd to carry on with passively undercutting the Celtics on a Celtics forum after being called out on it several times.  That would affect most people enough to persuade them to stop, maybe save an occasional reactive split or two.

I don't disagree with you on that. And Moronis is being his usual self of trying to to manipulate the truth when he compares Rondo's importance to Haslem. It's a head-shakingly bad comparison to make.

HOWEVER...his overall point isn't wrong. In the 2010-2011 series Rondo played 35 minutes per game. He averaged about the same points and rebounds that he did in the regular season and only his assists were down. Injured? Yes and that had some influence on the series. But Miami by that time was the better team and a healthy Rondo doesn't change that. Perhaps a healthy Rondo, a healthy Shaq and some luck changes that. But injuries tend to happen to older teams and the Cs were fading badly. The end was neigh.

Moreover, you can't point to Rondo being injured in 2011 and then dismiss Bosh being injured in 2012 and think that would have been a close series if Bosh played. The Cs in 2012 were *exceptionally* fortunate. It was a strike shortened season. Players were healthy. Bosh was hurt. And Miami still won. That tells you everything you need to know. It was never going to get any more in favor of the Cs than that and they still couldn't do it. The window had already closed...and that was proven even more by the following season.

Allen realized this, had little loyalty because Danny had already attempted to trade him and he wanted another ring. Moving to Miami would have been the natural decision to make. It's a free world and a fan is free to hate him for it. But it makes little sense to do so.

I never said Haslem was as good as Rondo, he wasn't.  But you don't win or lose playoff series based on your 4th best player unless your 3 best players are about even with the 3 best players on the other team, and that just wasn't the case.  And as I've pointed out, Rondo played 36 mpg and Haslem played 3 minutes in the entire series.  Rondo was banged up, but he wasn't so banged up he couldn't play, and statistically he performed fairly close to his season average in pretty much every statistical category.  Even if the injury hurt him a bit, this wasn't a 7 game series that went down to the wire.  Miami won in 5 and won quite easily because James, Wade, and Bosh, were quite simply significantly better than Garnett, Pierce, and Allen. 

[celtics2030]

Of course we have to get over it, the man is right.
But before we do, he deserves all these years of treatment (from fans and KG/Rondo)
Whatever his reasons, you don't give up on your (champions) teammates just to go with the number 1 enemy for an easy ring. The guy is like KD, he doesn't get the main point.

No mister Allen, you are not a Celtics. It just happen that you won a ring in Boston, that's all.
A Celtics sacrifices for the team. You exactly did the opposite.

How is he exactly like KD?
TP.  I feel similar but I will always state that Ray was vital to willing that championship.  He is exactly like KD.  Nothing wrong with that but own it.  I wanted to win more championships and I had a better shot in Miami then Boston.  He is as bitter as celtics fans.

[celtics2030]

All hypocrites in here lol.

Salty, butthurt, whatever you want to call it.

I can understand Ray , Pierce, and Garnett, being at odds with eachother.

But I laugh at the fans, you all look like cry baby sissies. That goes for all who decide to make fun of Ray or rip him to pieces, then actually expect no response. I still don't believe Ray responded like that, but w/e.

Money that Bradley just had his own epiphany...

Traded to a crappy Detroit team.

Yea gotta love Celtics and those fans, why didnt you guys do something to save Bradley from wasting his time in Detroit this year?

Because Bradley, as much as I love him, deserves a raise, and he wont be getting it from this team.

Doc, even if not loved by many, didnt receive the same backlash as Ray did, because he didnt leave for a rival team.

Oh BTW, you are no different, you also did nothing for AB. You are in no position to hold yourself high and mighty above us. You are actually the biggest hypocrite here, saying that after your relentless bashing of Marcus Smart.

Dude , can we stop with this smart thing. Im sorry to hurt your baby styled feelings. Im really sorry.

Second of all , of course I did nothing to save Bradley, because Im already at that place where I will never bash a player for making a team decision, never. Neither will I hate managament for what they do.

So hop off, Salty fan.