Author Topic: I'm getting tired of this.....  (Read 1542 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 12:02:36 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17824
  • Tommy Points: 8763
root for the laundry
this.

I root for the Celtics, not individuals.  that said, i do wish the best for anyone drafted by the C's that leaves on good terms either via a trade, waivers or free agency. 

one way to look at the current state of the NBA in terms of player shuffling is that it's now more in line with the other major sports: Football, MLB and Hockey.   
MLB has no salary cap but it's an extreme rarity that any player retires after playing their whole career with the team they started with.  only the top team's in terms of spending can afford to keep a top talent they developed.  small market teams have to move those higher-salaried players along for cheaper players and hope it pays off in the end.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 12:04:20 PM »

Offline timpiker

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1024
  • Tommy Points: 62
Been a Celtics fan almost my entire life...now I'm getting tired of the 'game'. I'm not talking about the game on the court, rather the game off the court. In particular I'm frustrated with the revolving door policy the new collective bargaining agreement seems to be perpetuating. Good and mediocre players sticking with one team for any length of time is mostly a thing of the past.

Now more than ever, GM's must manipulate contract salaries against salary cap limits. Players and their agents weigh salary maximization, playing time, teammate desires, endorsement possibilities, taxes, etc. in deciding where they want to play. Somewhere in this mix is a desire to win by both management and players. It seems far down the list though. This setup has always been in place. For some reason it feels a lot different now. Players staying with one team is almost unheard of. (Note the recent CB post..,”Six Celtics returning from last year's team”)

Can one really be a fan under these conditions. Players you cheered for, for 3 years are not resigned because there's not enough room under the cap to sign them. Or, they go elsewhere because they can get more money than their original team can pay. 

Over the years many of us wasted countless hours on CB evaluating players, criticizing or praising Danny, Brad, Doc, etc. There seemed to be some purpose... for example, many of us thought or felt we were building a team for the future....we speculated that if we got a few more assets, then we’d be title contenders.

Under the present circumstances, that's a myth. We can't count on players being re-signed. This year alone we lost key players in Bradley and Kelly. We didn't get anything for Kelly and likely a diminished value for Bradley. We griped for years that we should have signed Giannis instead of Kelly. Incredibly, we got NOTHING for him….nada. He was one of team’s best 3 point shooters and found cunning ways of scoring easy baskets near the hoop. Same thing happened last year.... we got NOTHING for Evan Turner….another stalwart on our offence. It’s likely next year another key player will sign elsewhere without us getting compensated. In a few years it could be Tatum or Brown. How can we have hope for the future under these conditions?

Yes, this year we may have acquired new players who might be as good or better than what we let go...But, how does one really cheer for players in the NBA anymore. We know that it's highly probably they'll be heading elsewhere at some point. In general fans build a bond for the better players on their favorite team over time. It doesn't seem this is possible under the current arrangement.

Sometime after the middle of last season a couple CBer's posted that they hadn't been watching the Celtics like they used to. And, they said that they didn't miss it. I’m beginning to wonder if I, and many other NBA fans, might feel the same way this coming season.

Even this summer, I watched two Celtic Summer League games and didn't have much desire to see any more. In the past I would have watched almost every game. Then again, it could just be the Summer League doesn't interest me like it did in the past.

Sadly, I enter the upcoming season with a reluctance to follow NBA basketball. The game seems to be more about money and entertainment, than it is about competition. On the other hand chances are I'll still be a fan because breaking an addiction isn't easy.

Anyone else feel a similar pain or frustration with the current state of contract affairs in the NBA?  Or, for other reasons? 

(Apologies for the negative tone of this post….maybe some of you can point out a lot of the positives I’m missing.)

You can thank Curt Flood

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 12:11:26 PM »

Online nickagneta

  • Global Moderator
  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30793
  • Tommy Points: 5149
Been a Celtics fan almost my entire life...now I'm getting tired of the 'game'. I'm not talking about the game on the court, rather the game off the court. In particular I'm frustrated with the revolving door policy the new collective bargaining agreement seems to be perpetuating. Good and mediocre players sticking with one team for any length of time is mostly a thing of the past.

Now more than ever, GM's must manipulate contract salaries against salary cap limits. Players and their agents weigh salary maximization, playing time, teammate desires, endorsement possibilities, taxes, etc. in deciding where they want to play. Somewhere in this mix is a desire to win by both management and players. It seems far down the list though. This setup has always been in place. For some reason it feels a lot different now. Players staying with one team is almost unheard of. (Note the recent CB post..,”Six Celtics returning from last year's team”)

Can one really be a fan under these conditions. Players you cheered for, for 3 years are not resigned because there's not enough room under the cap to sign them. Or, they go elsewhere because they can get more money than their original team can pay. 

Over the years many of us wasted countless hours on CB evaluating players, criticizing or praising Danny, Brad, Doc, etc. There seemed to be some purpose... for example, many of us thought or felt we were building a team for the future....we speculated that if we got a few more assets, then we’d be title contenders.

Under the present circumstances, that's a myth. We can't count on players being re-signed. This year alone we lost key players in Bradley and Kelly. We didn't get anything for Kelly and likely a diminished value for Bradley. We griped for years that we should have signed Giannis instead of Kelly. Incredibly, we got NOTHING for him….nada. He was one of team’s best 3 point shooters and found cunning ways of scoring easy baskets near the hoop. Same thing happened last year.... we got NOTHING for Evan Turner….another stalwart on our offence. It’s likely next year another key player will sign elsewhere without us getting compensated. In a few years it could be Tatum or Brown. How can we have hope for the future under these conditions?

Yes, this year we may have acquired new players who might be as good or better than what we let go...But, how does one really cheer for players in the NBA anymore. We know that it's highly probably they'll be heading elsewhere at some point. In general fans build a bond for the better players on their favorite team over time. It doesn't seem this is possible under the current arrangement.

Sometime after the middle of last season a couple CBer's posted that they hadn't been watching the Celtics like they used to. And, they said that they didn't miss it. I’m beginning to wonder if I, and many other NBA fans, might feel the same way this coming season.

Even this summer, I watched two Celtic Summer League games and didn't have much desire to see any more. In the past I would have watched almost every game. Then again, it could just be the Summer League doesn't interest me like it did in the past.

Sadly, I enter the upcoming season with a reluctance to follow NBA basketball. The game seems to be more about money and entertainment, than it is about competition. On the other hand chances are I'll still be a fan because breaking an addiction isn't easy.

Anyone else feel a similar pain or frustration with the current state of contract affairs in the NBA?  Or, for other reasons? 

(Apologies for the negative tone of this post….maybe some of you can point out a lot of the positives I’m missing.)
Maybe I am old fashioned but I root for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back. I am not crying over loss of Bradley, Turner, Olynyk, Amir, Sully, Rondo, or an over the hill Pierce and Garnett. I move on and cheer for the next guys wearing green.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 12:32:20 PM »

Online Rosco917

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3863
  • Tommy Points: 283
Been a Celtics fan almost my entire life...now I'm getting tired of the 'game'. I'm not talking about the game on the court, rather the game off the court. In particular I'm frustrated with the revolving door policy the new collective bargaining agreement seems to be perpetuating. Good and mediocre players sticking with one team for any length of time is mostly a thing of the past.

Now more than ever, GM's must manipulate contract salaries against salary cap limits. Players and their agents weigh salary maximization, playing time, teammate desires, endorsement possibilities, taxes, etc. in deciding where they want to play. Somewhere in this mix is a desire to win by both management and players. It seems far down the list though. This setup has always been in place. For some reason it feels a lot different now. Players staying with one team is almost unheard of. (Note the recent CB post..,”Six Celtics returning from last year's team”)

Can one really be a fan under these conditions. Players you cheered for, for 3 years are not resigned because there's not enough room under the cap to sign them. Or, they go elsewhere because they can get more money than their original team can pay. 

Over the years many of us wasted countless hours on CB evaluating players, criticizing or praising Danny, Brad, Doc, etc. There seemed to be some purpose... for example, many of us thought or felt we were building a team for the future....we speculated that if we got a few more assets, then we’d be title contenders.

Under the present circumstances, that's a myth. We can't count on players being re-signed. This year alone we lost key players in Bradley and Kelly. We didn't get anything for Kelly and likely a diminished value for Bradley. We griped for years that we should have signed Giannis instead of Kelly. Incredibly, we got NOTHING for him….nada. He was one of team’s best 3 point shooters and found cunning ways of scoring easy baskets near the hoop. Same thing happened last year.... we got NOTHING for Evan Turner….another stalwart on our offence. It’s likely next year another key player will sign elsewhere without us getting compensated. In a few years it could be Tatum or Brown. How can we have hope for the future under these conditions?

Yes, this year we may have acquired new players who might be as good or better than what we let go...But, how does one really cheer for players in the NBA anymore. We know that it's highly probably they'll be heading elsewhere at some point. In general fans build a bond for the better players on their favorite team over time. It doesn't seem this is possible under the current arrangement.

Sometime after the middle of last season a couple CBer's posted that they hadn't been watching the Celtics like they used to. And, they said that they didn't miss it. I’m beginning to wonder if I, and many other NBA fans, might feel the same way this coming season.

Even this summer, I watched two Celtic Summer League games and didn't have much desire to see any more. In the past I would have watched almost every game. Then again, it could just be the Summer League doesn't interest me like it did in the past.

Sadly, I enter the upcoming season with a reluctance to follow NBA basketball. The game seems to be more about money and entertainment, than it is about competition. On the other hand chances are I'll still be a fan because breaking an addiction isn't easy.

Anyone else feel a similar pain or frustration with the current state of contract affairs in the NBA?  Or, for other reasons? 

(Apologies for the negative tone of this post….maybe some of you can point out a lot of the positives I’m missing.)



I may enjoy watching certain players, but in general I root for the team. I enjoy watching the puzzle being put together as the team tries to win a ring. Simply said, I enjoy the ride to the destination.

As example, from that day I heard Pierce, and KG being traded to the Nets, followed by Rondo and Green getting unloaded, that began the official rebuild, and the beginning of a new ride for me. Honestly... its been a fun ride so far. We're a player away from serious contention.

Things could be a lot worse, I could be a Knick fan.  ;D


Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2017, 12:38:21 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3145
  • Tommy Points: 303
I get what you're saying, Alleyoopster. I like that players have the freedom to choose their team after their rookie contract is up, but it's tough sometimes to have players shuffling in and out constantly. That really highlights the notion that we cheer for "the name on the front of the jersey," as opposed to individual players ... yet it's hard to not get attached to certain players.

I guess the point of the salary cap is to encourage parity among teams, but that doesn't really work, because good owners are willing to go into the luxury tax to be true contenders, and there are plenty of crappy owners who won't spend enough to even put a decent team on the floor. And now there are guys like Durant who'll take less in order to keep super teams together.

But the NBA wants to have its cake and eat it too—they want to have as many franchises as possible in order to increase overall marketing revenue, but they really don't want teams like San Antonio being good, because that's not a lucrative market like L.A. or New York or Boston. So there's no virtually no way a team like Orlando or Milwaukee or Charlotte is ever going to be a true title contender in the modern NBA (which is especially unfortunate for franchises that have some rich history, such as Milwaukee), yet the NBA will never contract those franchises because that would be an overall loss of league revenue. So teams like the Bucks, for all intents and purposes, serve as glorified minor-league pipelines for the few wealthy/super teams.

But even with the better teams, like Boston, there will still be quite a bit of shuffling, even of good players like Bradley, because owners and GMs need to make room for the star players, who are necessary for winning in the modern NBA.

So, you're right, it's kind of a mess.
Except San Antonio has been good for the better part of 2 decades.  OKC has been good.  Good ownership leads to good management which leads to winning.  Small market teams just need to be more focused on the draft and managing their cap space.  The state of the big market teams Lakers, Bulls, Knicks and even Clippers doesn't look good. 

The Bucks have one of the best young stars in the league for 4 more years and then will be able to offer him a designated veteran extension for another 4 or 5 more years.  What young talent have they lost to the larger market teams?  They re-signed Middleton on a good deal a year ago.  With the weakness in the East, they've got a shot to be a contender.  Unfortunately for them, their ownership appears weak based on how they handled replacing their GM.     

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2017, 12:46:41 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1647
  • Tommy Points: 205
Quote
This year alone we lost key players in Bradley and Kelly. We didn't get anything for Kelly and likely a diminished value for Bradley.

You seem to really like Olynyk. I won't go into Olynyk. But with Bradley, we were the team sending an extra 2nd round pick, which means we were the team sending the diminished value. Morris as a Lebron stopper is one of the sneaky most valuable role player commodities in the league, and is signed for less than Avery for one more year. We won that trade.
"Young man, you have the question backwards." - Bill Russell

"My guess is that an aggregator of expert opinions would be close in terms of results to that of Danny." - Roy H.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2017, 12:47:05 PM »

Online Rosco917

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3863
  • Tommy Points: 283
I will say this... too quickly it's becoming a players league. What you see happening, and what the OP speaks about, is the result of the players union weakening the structure of the franchises. The inmates are running the asylum.

Also with the players basically skipping college, and going directly to the NBA, the game is changing more and more. From a game that was once an inside out game, then to a 3 and D league, it's now morphing into a 3 and NO D affair. The game of the future will resemble the All-Star game, everyone chucking up 3's and showing off their new high flying dunk. 

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2017, 01:12:50 PM »

Offline CoachBo

  • NCE
  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6053
  • Tommy Points: 335
Been a Celtics fan almost my entire life...now I'm getting tired of the 'game'. I'm not talking about the game on the court, rather the game off the court. In particular I'm frustrated with the revolving door policy the new collective bargaining agreement seems to be perpetuating. Good and mediocre players sticking with one team for any length of time is mostly a thing of the past.

Now more than ever, GM's must manipulate contract salaries against salary cap limits. Players and their agents weigh salary maximization, playing time, teammate desires, endorsement possibilities, taxes, etc. in deciding where they want to play. Somewhere in this mix is a desire to win by both management and players. It seems far down the list though. This setup has always been in place. For some reason it feels a lot different now. Players staying with one team is almost unheard of. (Note the recent CB post..,”Six Celtics returning from last year's team”)

Can one really be a fan under these conditions. Players you cheered for, for 3 years are not resigned because there's not enough room under the cap to sign them. Or, they go elsewhere because they can get more money than their original team can pay. 

Over the years many of us wasted countless hours on CB evaluating players, criticizing or praising Danny, Brad, Doc, etc. There seemed to be some purpose... for example, many of us thought or felt we were building a team for the future....we speculated that if we got a few more assets, then we’d be title contenders.

Under the present circumstances, that's a myth. We can't count on players being re-signed. This year alone we lost key players in Bradley and Kelly. We didn't get anything for Kelly and likely a diminished value for Bradley. We griped for years that we should have signed Giannis instead of Kelly. Incredibly, we got NOTHING for him….nada. He was one of team’s best 3 point shooters and found cunning ways of scoring easy baskets near the hoop. Same thing happened last year.... we got NOTHING for Evan Turner….another stalwart on our offence. It’s likely next year another key player will sign elsewhere without us getting compensated. In a few years it could be Tatum or Brown. How can we have hope for the future under these conditions?

Yes, this year we may have acquired new players who might be as good or better than what we let go...But, how does one really cheer for players in the NBA anymore. We know that it's highly probably they'll be heading elsewhere at some point. In general fans build a bond for the better players on their favorite team over time. It doesn't seem this is possible under the current arrangement.

Sometime after the middle of last season a couple CBer's posted that they hadn't been watching the Celtics like they used to. And, they said that they didn't miss it. I’m beginning to wonder if I, and many other NBA fans, might feel the same way this coming season.

Even this summer, I watched two Celtic Summer League games and didn't have much desire to see any more. In the past I would have watched almost every game. Then again, it could just be the Summer League doesn't interest me like it did in the past.

Sadly, I enter the upcoming season with a reluctance to follow NBA basketball. The game seems to be more about money and entertainment, than it is about competition. On the other hand chances are I'll still be a fan because breaking an addiction isn't easy.

Anyone else feel a similar pain or frustration with the current state of contract affairs in the NBA?  Or, for other reasons? 

(Apologies for the negative tone of this post….maybe some of you can point out a lot of the positives I’m missing.)
Maybe I am old fashioned but I root for the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back. I am not crying over loss of Bradley, Turner, Olynyk, Amir, Sully, Rondo, or an over the hill Pierce and Garnett. I move on and cheer for the next guys wearing green.

This is reason 1 why I detest David Stern - marketing individuals over the name on the front of the jersey.

Agree completely, Nick. I want to win. I don't care who's wearing the uniform when we do that, and I certainly don't EVER develop attachments to individual players, be they good, bad or in the case of Rondo, indifferent.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2017, 01:19:40 PM »

Offline BitterJim

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4551
  • Tommy Points: 631
I will say this... too quickly it's becoming a players league. What you see happening, and what the OP speaks about, is the result of the players union weakening the structure of the franchises. The inmates are running the asylum.

Also with the players basically skipping college, and going directly to the NBA, the game is changing more and more. From a game that was once an inside out game, then to a 3 and D league, it's now morphing into a 3 and NO D affair. The game of the future will resemble the All-Star game, everyone chucking up 3's and showing off their new high flying dunk.

Why is the players having more power than before "the inmates [...] running the asylum"?  What's so inherently bad about taking power from a bunch of rich men who own teams and giving it to the people who actually play the game?  It's not like the owners have your best interests in mind - they have themselves (and their wallets) to take care of
I'm bitter.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2017, 01:20:06 PM »

Offline droopdog7

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4094
  • Tommy Points: 276
I don't think the new collective bargaining agreement is to blame, for the most part.  The biggest issue, I think, is that the NBA is business now more than ever.  Revenues are huge but so is the desire to win.  Indeed, the new collective bargaining agreement has a number of things in place to try and keep teams together. 

If we had a situation where teams could pay what they wanted, and removed the luxury tax penalties (for example), we'd still have a similar situation because teams with great players would still be bidding against the entire league for their great players, making salaries skyrocket and making it difficult for teams to stay together.

Is there was a hard cap, again, teams would not be able to stay together because they'd get to their limit and other teams would space would take them.

So I understand being upset and yearning for the old days but you're blame is misplaced.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2017, 01:42:55 PM »

Offline incoherent

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1797
  • Tommy Points: 263
  • 7 + 11 = 18
The OP must be joking, right?

I mean, do you really want to go back to the old days of giving  mid-level players 6 year contracts and have them completely suck after getting their money?

Do names like Raef Lafrentz and Mark Blount not haunt you at night still?  You want to go back to those days??

Now players can't just mail it in, they will need another contract in 1-3 years.  They will always be giving their best.  Franchises will have flexibility and not be screwed for 5-6 year periods by making a mistake.

I could not disagree more with the OP of this thread.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2017, 02:07:40 PM »

Offline Scintan

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2933
  • Tommy Points: 647
We didnt actually lose Kelly for nothing and AB for diminished return. Think about it this way, we traded Kelly and AB for Hayward and Marcus Morris. In the same way that the Cavs didnt lose Luol Deng for nothing, it was necessary to get Lebron James.

Yes, they lost Kelly for nothing and AB for diminished return. 


When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.

Re: I'm getting tired of this.....
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2017, 02:41:32 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5097
  • Tommy Points: 880
I get what you're saying, Alleyoopster. I like that players have the freedom to choose their team after their rookie contract is up, but it's tough sometimes to have players shuffling in and out constantly. That really highlights the notion that we cheer for "the name on the front of the jersey," as opposed to individual players ... yet it's hard to not get attached to certain players.

I guess the point of the salary cap is to encourage parity among teams, but that doesn't really work, because good owners are willing to go into the luxury tax to be true contenders, and there are plenty of crappy owners who won't spend enough to even put a decent team on the floor. And now there are guys like Durant who'll take less in order to keep super teams together.

But the NBA wants to have its cake and eat it too—they want to have as many franchises as possible in order to increase overall marketing revenue, but they really don't want teams like San Antonio being good, because that's not a lucrative market like L.A. or New York or Boston. So there's no virtually no way a team like Orlando or Milwaukee or Charlotte is ever going to be a true title contender in the modern NBA (which is especially unfortunate for franchises that have some rich history, such as Milwaukee), yet the NBA will never contract those franchises because that would be an overall loss of league revenue. So teams like the Bucks, for all intents and purposes, serve as glorified minor-league pipelines for the few wealthy/super teams.

But even with the better teams, like Boston, there will still be quite a bit of shuffling, even of good players like Bradley, because owners and GMs need to make room for the star players, who are necessary for winning in the modern NBA.

So, you're right, it's kind of a mess.

Except San Antonio has been good for the better part of 2 decades.  OKC has been good.  Good ownership leads to good management which leads to winning.  Small market teams just need to be more focused on the draft and managing their cap space.  The state of the big market teams Lakers, Bulls, Knicks and even Clippers doesn't look good. 

The Bucks have one of the best young stars in the league for 4 more years and then will be able to offer him a designated veteran extension for another 4 or 5 more years.  What young talent have they lost to the larger market teams?  They re-signed Middleton on a good deal a year ago.  With the weakness in the East, they've got a shot to be a contender.  Unfortunately for them, their ownership appears weak based on how they handled replacing their GM.   

You're absolutely right about good management. Big-market teams can't assume success, and small-market teams can certainly shine, as San Antonio especially has proven.

I do think, though, that small-market teams have to do a lot more things correctly, and get more breaks, because all things being equal, most players would rather go to NY/LA/Chicago than SA or MIL.
"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis