Poll

Lose Bradley (Trade). Sign Hayward (Free Agency). Upgrade Or Not?

Huge Upgrade
61 (69.3%)
Moderate Upgrade
25 (28.4%)
Slight Upgrade Only
2 (2.3%)
Pretty Much The Same, Honestly
0 (0%)
We Took A Step Back. Hayward Is (Really) Overrated/Bradley Underrated
0 (0%)
I Don't Know (Just Can't Say Now..)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 86

Author Topic: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward  (Read 4973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Phantom255x

  • Paul Silas
  • ******
  • Posts: 6500
  • Tommy Points: 488
  • On To Banner 18!
And this is coming from someone WHO LOVED BRADLEY, and when it came for trade rumors and what not, I was always hoping we could somehow keep AB while trading Crowder among others (and I love Crowder and his contract too). It's definitely sad to see Bradley leave especially considering he was the last link to the Big 3 Team from 2008-2012.

But while it definitely hurts to lose Bradley after all this time, especially for just Marcus Morris.... it seems like a lot of people forgot that we added Gordon Hayward.

Avery Bradley is an elite defender in the league, and one of the better two-way players in the game (don't let his absence in the All-NBA Defense Teams affect your stance on that, because that was BS). A guy who could score 16-18 PPG and play elite defense is someone who is a great player, and frankly a tad bit underrated in an era and league where it seems like scoring and average PPG is an "indicator" of how well you play.

But Gordon Hayward is a legit all-star, who has played many years in a tough Western Conference, and while his defense may not be Bradley-level, it is still above average (actually, still VERY GOOD and a bit underrated). Hayward also has the size to match up well against other forwards on defense, AND offense (hello Lebron! Time to actually try on defense more.)

IN THE MOST RECENT POSTSEASON, Gordon Hayward averaged 26 PPG/7 RPG/4 RPG. I know it's really 24/6/3, BUT don't forget, Hayward left one game really early due to food poisoning (after just 9 minutes) and so he only scored 3 points that game. Take that "food poison game" out and it's really 26/7/4. Also, Hayward played A LOT of the 4 in the postseason and his defense reportedly took a huge step forward during the playoffs. But of course, against the Warriors... you need like 4-5 all stars to have a chance against them lol. Still, Hayward also had a huge Game 7 against LAC on the road (scoring and defense) and carried them to the win in the 4th as well, allowing them to advance.

All those Crowder, Bradley bricks (even on open looks) are shots Hayward is capable of making in his sleep (easy). Hayward is someone who can legitimately take over games, something you can't say of Bradley. While Hayward becomes the #2 guy on THIS Celtics team, he's someone you'd much rather have than Bradley in games where Isaiah struggles, and you need someone else to step up and score late in games.

Again, I'll miss Bradley a ton, and I didn't mean to trash on AB with this thread, but I'm just saying, YES, we did get a lot better with the addition of Hayward, and my guess is, we keep IT+Smart as a result, and still have the trade assets to pull off a trade for another star in the future (or hope any or all of Brown/Tatum/Zizic/2018 BKN Pick become all-stars as well).
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:51:28 PM by Phantom255x »

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 01:07:16 PM »

Offline smokeablount

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1232
  • Tommy Points: 70
Huge upgrade. Having a big time #2 scorer is huge and Hayward is a playmaker for teammates and can rebound, putting up decent numbers with Gobert & Favors on the floor. Also, Smart/Brown as a pair are capable fill-ins.

Hayward may not add more than 3-5 regular season wins, but in the playoffs he adds so much value.
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 01:13:15 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3638
  • Tommy Points: 283
No doubt that I know Bradley's game way better than I know Hayward's game but I give it a moderate upgrade.  For sure it will be important to have the added offense, especially with uncertainty with Thomas due to his injury but Bradley did more of the little things (defense, rebounding) than I think most give him credit for.

One factor in favor of Hayward that I don't think gets enough attention is durability.  Hayward has a better record of staying available to play.  Bradley gets hurt a lot.

I see Hayward as about the same as Clay Thompson.  Definitely an important piece and one the defense will have to adjust to (which will open up some other things) but I don't not see him as a "take the game over" type of player.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 01:13:50 PM »

Offline td450

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 546
  • Tommy Points: 42
You could pull the same trick on Bradley's playoff numbers. He had a couple of rough games after a minor injury, but otherwise, his scoring went up in the playoffs too.

I think it is fair to say that Hayward is quite a bit better as an offensive player. What worries me is that Bradley had a unique ability to make a defensive difference against the quickest, most elite point guards and that was important to the team's success. He could turn ball handlers routinely. Smart and Rozier are excellent defenders, but just couldn't body up against that class of player.

Right now, point guards are increasingly dominating the league, and the two top teams have one, so we will find out how important that is.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 01:22:52 PM »

Offline 2short

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5886
  • Tommy Points: 415
Offensively Hayward is huge.  Better scorer, passer.  He's a good defender.
Bradley is a great defender, good shooter, great guy  :'(

It's an upgrade.  I think rozier will step into Bradley's role nicely.  Avery's size and lack of really good ball handling was problem.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 01:23:15 PM »

Offline JBcat

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2521
  • Tommy Points: 444
You could pull the same trick on Bradley's playoff numbers. He had a couple of rough games after a minor injury, but otherwise, his scoring went up in the playoffs too.

I think it is fair to say that Hayward is quite a bit better as an offensive player. What worries me is that Bradley had a unique ability to make a defensive difference against the quickest, most elite point guards and that was important to the team's success. He could turn ball handlers routinely. Smart and Rozier are excellent defenders, but just couldn't body up against that class of player.

Right now, point guards are increasingly dominating the league, and the two top teams have one, so we will find out how important that is.

This is true regarding Bradley's defense on PGs, but I look at the playoffs and Wall and Irving still went off.  So I do question how much his loss of D on PGs will hurt us.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 01:25:53 PM »

Offline ImShakHeIsShaq

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7180
  • Tommy Points: 731
Your mistake is thinking it's AB vs. Hayward. No one thinks that's a comparison (if they do why are you listening? That's crazy). We could have kept him to play with Hayward so Hayward had nothing to do with AB. The team wanted to get bigger and moving AB made us bigger and we don't have to worry about paying him. Moving AB killed multiple birds with one stone. We got bigger, open playing time for JB/Tatum at the 2, don't have to pay a lot or lose AB and hopefully size next to him hides IT4 more. They had to choose IT4 over AB because their pairing needed more size and you're not paying both the money they deserve,  one had to go. You have to choose IT4 over AB, no matter how much I hate that AB had to go because IT4 can't defend a chair, it was easily the right decision.


It takes me 3hrs to get to Miami and 1hr to get to Orlando... but I *SPIT* on their NBA teams! "Bless God and bless the (Celts)"-Lady GaGa (she said gays but she really meant Celts)

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 01:26:01 PM »

Offline smokeablount

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1232
  • Tommy Points: 70
No doubt that I know Bradley's game way better than I know Hayward's game but I give it a moderate upgrade.  For sure it will be important to have the added offense, especially with uncertainty with Thomas due to his injury but Bradley did more of the little things (defense, rebounding) than I think most give him credit for.

One factor in favor of Hayward that I don't think gets enough attention is durability.  Hayward has a better record of staying available to play.  Bradley gets hurt a lot.

I see Hayward as about the same as Clay Thompson.  Definitely an important piece and one the defense will have to adjust to (which will open up some other things) but I don't not see him as a "take the game over" type of player.

Yeah I forgot to mention durability, where Hayward excels, because the difference between Hayward on this years team vs the team last year without AB is huge.

I also do think if Smart slims down some, he can replace AB more effectively than we could replicate what Hayward offers offensively. I also think Hayward does some little things better, like he's a better rebounder, passer, lengthier defender of wings, etc.   
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

-Sexyscottish

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 01:27:42 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18122
  • Tommy Points: 8815
moderate upgrade IMHO.   would have been a huge upgrade if we moved Crowder instead of AB. 

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 01:30:22 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

  • NCE
  • Tommy Heinsohn
  • *************************
  • Posts: 25545
  • Tommy Points: 1946
Hayward will bring better IQ every play , passing , ball handling ,  steady scoring and he can actually STAY on the freak n court for 10 games and no get some bad injury and miss 3-6 weeks in rehab every season.

Bradley defense of many top guards will,be missed . 

For me the overall balance is tipped pretty heavy in favor of Haywards game.   


You think Utah would trade Hayward for Bradley staright up ......not likely ....one is clearly the superior overall player and IQ

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2017, 01:39:21 PM »

Offline td450

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 546
  • Tommy Points: 42
You could pull the same trick on Bradley's playoff numbers. He had a couple of rough games after a minor injury, but otherwise, his scoring went up in the playoffs too.

I think it is fair to say that Hayward is quite a bit better as an offensive player. What worries me is that Bradley had a unique ability to make a defensive difference against the quickest, most elite point guards and that was important to the team's success. He could turn ball handlers routinely. Smart and Rozier are excellent defenders, but just couldn't body up against that class of player.

Right now, point guards are increasingly dominating the league, and the two top teams have one, so we will find out how important that is.

This is true regarding Bradley's defense on PGs, but I look at the playoffs and Wall and Irving still went off.  So I do question how much his loss of D on PGs will hurt us.
Wall had a rough series against us. Check out his numbers. He just took a lot of shots.

Irving did go off. His strategy against Bradley was to force a switch, and LeBron and Love did a great job of setting the picks and burning our defense whenever we overcommitted to Irving. I think the only way to do better with that is for us to have quicker, more aggressive bigs.

I'd still rather have Bradley on Irving than anyone else in the league.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 01:40:51 PM »

Offline jpotter33

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23521
  • Tommy Points: 2867
AB's defense was actually pretty subpar (for him) for most of last year, along with Crowder's D. He stepped it up defensively in the playoffs and actually had several phenomenal defensive games guarding Butler, but on the whole I think AB's D was at times overrated around the league. I have no doubt that he's the best on-ball defender in the league, but that's only part of defense. He was actually pretty mediocre in help/off-ball D many times.

Other areas where he really hurt us include his severe lack of BBIQ and his lack of ball handling and passing abilities. Those are two huge upgrades that we needed badly in the starting unit. And his subpar size also was a check against him.

If we start Brown at the 2 with Hayward at the 3, overall we're much bigger with much better BBIQ, ball handling, passing, playmaking, scoring, and overall balance than we were last year.
Quote from:  Ron Swanson
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2017, 01:54:45 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • JoJo White
  • ****************
  • Posts: 16474
  • Tommy Points: 1173
I agree folks are overrating Bradley sometimes in terms of raw defensive ability. However, his particular value lied in the fact that you can line him up next to Thomas and have him guard either guard. Can't do that with Hayward.

I also think that they are clearly overrating Hayward right now, though. Time will tell.
(Formerly) managing Rilski Sportist to glory at http://www.buzzerbeater.com

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 01:57:14 PM »

Offline jpotter33

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23521
  • Tommy Points: 2867
I agree folks are overrating Bradley sometimes.

However, I also think that they are clearly overrating Hayward right now.


Time will tell.

Lol this is the epitome of "Kozean" philosophy - pessimism and cynicism to the end!  :P
Quote from:  Ron Swanson
It's never too early to learn that the government is a greedy piglet that suckles on a taxpayer's teet until they have sore, chapped nipples.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 01:57:28 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

  • Gordon Hayward
  • Posts: 687
  • Tommy Points: 76
Hayward peaked last season and the Celtics bought at an all time high... I question the wisdom of his signing.  It's definitely better than maxing out a player who peaked four or five seasons ago (Al Horford), but it seems a strong indicator that there's no real long-term plan. 

Especially when considering the Celtics already have Jae Crowder - who is a top 10 NBA small forward - locked up on one of the league' best deals for years to come... And they just spent consecutive top 3 picks on guys who play his position....