Poll

Lose Bradley (Trade). Sign Hayward (Free Agency). Upgrade Or Not?

Huge Upgrade
61 (69.3%)
Moderate Upgrade
25 (28.4%)
Slight Upgrade Only
2 (2.3%)
Pretty Much The Same, Honestly
0 (0%)
We Took A Step Back. Hayward Is (Really) Overrated/Bradley Underrated
0 (0%)
I Don't Know (Just Can't Say Now..)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 86

Author Topic: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward  (Read 3195 times)

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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2017, 04:06:21 PM »

Offline eja117

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Moderate might end up being the outcome. We win a couple extra games. We push Cleveland to game 7.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2017, 04:18:00 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Moderate might end up being the outcome. We win a couple extra games. We push Cleveland to game 7.
55+ wins and a 7 game ECF would be a very very big improvement in my eyes.
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2017, 04:30:02 PM »

Online Surferdad

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If Celtics push Cavs to Game 7, there's no reason to think they won't win.  Cavs have not done much so far this off-season, and LeBron is year older.  He has needed more rest in recent seasons.  This could be a case where the C's depth wins out in the end.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2017, 04:36:35 PM »

Offline max215

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Moderate might end up being the outcome. We win a couple extra games. We push Cleveland to game 7.
55+ wins and a 7 game ECF would be a very very big improvement in my eyes.

Same, which is what I think will happen and why I voted "huge upgrade." And to the original topic, it is most certainly true that Bradley is being overrated and Hayward underrated. Bradley is overrated, because the eye test largely belies his actual impact; year in and year out, impact statistics just don't think much of Bradley. At some point, you have to put some stock into that. As for Hayward, people on here just haven't seen that much of him. He's likely a top-15 player and was as good, if not better than Paul George last season.
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2017, 04:52:29 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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They don't play the same position. Bradley was a real SG, he could defend the position, and score pretty well. Bradleys main fault, besides being injured too often, and not being a very good passer, is he really wasn't a go to scorer, he just couldn't consistently find his shot. He needs to be setup to excel.

Hayward is a 3, who at times can slide up to SG, (I'm not convinced he can defend the position well enough to play there full time.) Hayward is what the team needs to get better, he's an alpha dog go to scorer. He can create his own shot at will. He 's a good passer, and underrated defender. Pair him with a fully healthy IT, and the C's are much more difficult to defend.

Hayward is an upgrade for the entire team. Gordon Hayward in CBS system still can get even better.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2017, 05:16:00 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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Its huge. Ring chasers should be calling soon to take the minimum to come here.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2017, 05:17:31 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Hayward is a 3, who at times can slide up to SG, (I'm not convinced he can defend the position well enough to play there full time.) Hayward is what the team needs to get better, he's an alpha dog go to scorer. He can create his own shot at will. He 's a good passer, and underrated defender. Pair him with a fully healthy IT, and the C's are much more difficult to defend.

Hayward is an upgrade for the entire team. Gordon Hayward in CBS system still can get even better.

I wonder if maybe Hayward isn't our leading scorer next season, averaging something like 26-28, compared to something like 24-25 from Isaiah but with 10-ish assists, etc.
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Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2017, 05:47:44 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Hayward is a 3, who at times can slide up to SG, (I'm not convinced he can defend the position well enough to play there full time.) Hayward is what the team needs to get better, he's an alpha dog go to scorer. He can create his own shot at will. He 's a good passer, and underrated defender. Pair him with a fully healthy IT, and the C's are much more difficult to defend.

Hayward is an upgrade for the entire team. Gordon Hayward in CBS system still can get even better.

I wonder if maybe Hayward isn't our leading scorer next season, averaging something like 26-28, compared to something like 24-25 from Isaiah but with 10-ish assists, etc.

I expect him at 20-22 and IT at 22-24.

Hayward is probably at his peak, but his game should age about as well as Pierce's so I think he's got 4-5 years of All Star play left.

I think Hayward is a massive upgrade over Bradley offensively. He's far more versatile than AB.

Beyond that GH should make everyone around him more efficient offensively. He's a threat from everywhere on the floor. This will take a ton of pressure off IT and create better looks for him, Horford, and all the rest.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2017, 06:45:11 PM »

Offline mobilija

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Replace Bradley with Hayward on last years Jazz team. How much better or worse are they?

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2017, 07:24:21 PM »

Offline mr. dee

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People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2017, 07:45:05 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I don't see the upgrade others are claiming. 

If it was just a case of losing Bradley and adding Hayward then sure, that would be a pretty significant upgrade.  Still not a HUGE upgrade, but a very significant one. 

But I don't believe you can look at our team this year vs last year as simply a case of Hayward vs Bradley.  There have been a lot of changes which I think are going to hurt the team a LOT - possibly enough to offset any gain Hayward gives us over Bradley.

Firstly, this team's horrendous rebounding has given us major issues for some 2 years running now, and after the moves this offseason we have just gotten a LOT worse in that area.  We have lost Bradley, Olynyk , Jerebko, Amir and Zeller.  That's 5 of our top 6 rebounders gone.  In return we've picked up Zizic (who may or may not be even capable of producing), Morris (who can't rebound to save his life), Hayward (a woefully mediocre rebounder for his size), Baynes (who probably wont get more than 20 MPG), and Theiss who looks to me like he will be utterly useless and probably won't contribute at all.

Secondly, chemistry is almost certainly count to suffer.  We lost Bradley, the longest tenured guy on this roster.  We've also lost Olynyk and Jerebko - nice solid backup guys who knew there role, played their role well, and never tried to do too much.  We've instead added Hayward (who I think will fit in fine offensively) but we've also added Baynes (who has zero offensive ability and terrible hands), Morris (who wouldn't know what team offense is if it slapped him in the face) and a handful of guys who have never played an NBA game thus far an will take time to adjust. I am seriously concerned about how long it will take for our chemistry to start to gel, and I'm not sure if we will ever have the same offensive capability with this unit as we had earlier.  Even Amir, for all his limitations, was an extremely efficient finisher around the basket, an intelligent passer, and a strong offensive rebounder who could also step out and hit the occasional three.   He didn't do much, but he helped on the offensive end more than people may realize while he was on the court.

As for the Bradley/Hayward chance...Bradley was the perfect guy for the SG spot given he had the quickness and length to defend both guard spots, had the defensive toughness to cover for Isaiah's limitations, and had the consistent outside shooting to help create space for Isaiah.  We've lost him now and I assume Hayward will replace him in the lineup at SG.  That's fine on the offensive end, but I shudder to think of how bad Hayward is going to be defensively with Horford (instead of Gobert) there to back him up in the middle, and with Isaiah Thomas (instead of George Hill) alongside him at the PG spot.  Hill can take care of his own man defensively, so before Hayward only had to worry about his own man.  He didn't even have to worry about that much because when his man got by him, he had Gobert covering his back.  this year he will need to cover his man AND help on IT's man - and there will be no 7'1" shotblocker in the middle to cover up for his mistakes.  So based on sheer "sum of parts" Hayward is definitely a better individual talent.  But Bradley's overall contributions as a three way player (offense, defense, rebounding) might eclipse Hayward's contributions as what is pretty much a one dimensional play who isn't very good at anything other than scoring.

Based on the significant drop off that I'm expect on both offense (due to chemistry) and defense (due to both chemistry and sheer defensive talent) I'm going to go out on a limp and say it's entirely possible that Boston, as a team, may well regress this year.

But I do believe that 2 years from now (once our young guys have some experience and start breaking out) we could become very, very good.

To me this year's moves were a very clear case of sacrificing one year in order to make us stronger in the future.  I don't love that idea because I feel like we are legit one or two pieces away from competing with Golden State, and I would have liked to strike now while the opportunity is there...

But I get the move.  Horford and IT don't have that much prime left in them, so if we went all in right now I'd say we probably only have window or 2-3 years.  I can see why Danny would prefer to sacrifice some success in those 2 years for a good decade of success.   

But at the same time I feel disappointed because it feels like we are wasting Horford and IT's best years on the hope that Brown and Tatum will become future superstars and help carry this team, and I feel that's a bit risk. 

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2017, 08:06:52 PM »

Offline incoherent

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Avery missed 28 games last season.  The Celtics won those games at a 70% rate going 19-8.

Yes, people are overrating Avery.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2017, 08:08:53 PM »

Offline bopna

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Hayward is getting better every yr and that is something to take into consideration..he will be a perennial all star in the mediocre East. AB has already reached his max potential in his last yr with us and KO is just still going to be as inconsistent as he always was.
Have we improved by leaps and bounds absolutely...IT himself will be more effective this yr IMO with the arrival of GH. Not to mention that Brown is eager to improve and Tatum will also contribute right off the bat. Rozier has improved each yr and so has Smart.

To be honest we cannot judge these Cs anymore when we were mangled by the Cavs. The improvement across the board will now make Lebron pee in his shorts. Lets remember he is 33 now and GH is just about to enter his prime and so does IT...

We can take the Cavs now in a seven game series...now would we win well maybe maybe not but atleast we aint gonna be blown off.

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2017, 08:08:56 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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People are underestimating the defensive impact Smart and Rozier are gonna bring.

Smart is a one dimensional player who is an offensive liability at least half the time he's on the floor...

And as much as I love Rozier he's yet to prove that he can play at a competitive level CONSISTENTLY throughout the course of a season.  He's shown he can come up big in the playoffs, but we need more than just 15 good games a season from him.

Both guys have the potential to be major wildcards for us this year - in fact our bench in general has the potential to be a huge wildcard now that we've added a dynamic scorer (Tatum).

I'm more worried about whether the extra 5 PPG we gain from Hayward will be enough to offset the defense, rebounding, hustle and leadership we were getting from Bradley.  I've always seen Hayward as a Kevin Love type - he seems very skilled and talented, but I don't see any kinda of natural born leadership, toughness or killer instinct in him.  I hoped after his performance this season maybe that will change, but then there were some comments made by him this year that killed those hopes  - he basically said right out that he doesn't see himself as a leader of this team and just wants to play his role.   That concerned me a bit because while it's lovely for guys to make comments like this, we already have one too many modest stars on this team (Horford).  We need somebody with an Alpha-Dog mentality, and I worry Hayward is not that guy. 

This signing will eliminate all of our cap flexibility for the next 2-3 years so I hope Hayward can prove me wrong.  If nothing else I do see some of that killer instinct in Tatum, so if Hayward doesn't bring it hopefully he will in time. 

Re: I Feel Like People Are Overrating Bradley/Underrating Hayward
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2017, 08:15:03 PM »

Offline PAOBoston

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Analytics troglodyte here.

Is there a site I can utilize to see the Cs defensive efficiency with/without Bradley on the court and, in particular, the efficiency when both Bradley/IT are on the floor together as opposed to say someone else and IT?