Author Topic: Are we Better?  (Read 3811 times)

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Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 11:48:26 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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I think we're 55-60 wins better than last year. TBH.

That's taking into account the little dings / injuries that will occur.

Really excited about this team for near (and far) future.
Marcus Smart "Impacts Winning." Boston Celtics Coach Brad Stevens

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 11:54:31 AM »

Offline td450

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I always found the IT/Bradley backcourt fascinating because it was the smallest, but also the quickest backcourt I've ever watched play in the NBA, and I've been watching for since the 70's. I thought it was impressive that they more than held their own.

There has been a complete renovation in terms of size and aggression, without downgrading skill. That's good. Whether we become a 60 win type team depends on Brown and Tatum. I think Brown has to be our starting 2 guard. If Brown can continue to evolve as a defender, and can give us an efficient 14+ ppg, we will be very tough. If not, we will only improve a bit over last year.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2017, 11:56:28 AM »

Offline hpantazo

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For the first time since Stevens took over as coach, he has a roster that is in line with his vision. He not only has a roster that fits with his goal of positionless basketball, with 3 bigs, 3 ball handlers, and 9 swing players as he calls them, all guys who can handle the ball, shoot with range, and guard multiple positions. He also has his favorite player in Hayward on top of it all.

Furthermore, Stevens has a renewed toughness built in to the roster with Baynes, Morris, Ojeley, Smart, Crowder and Zizic.

He has two dynamic top tier draft talents in Tatum and Brown.

We are clearly better , hands down. I'm really excited to see what Stevens can do now that he has the type of roster he has always wanted.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2017, 12:01:06 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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I lined up all the changes to the roster as best I could.  Of course they are not all one for one but it worked out pretty close.  Try not to get bogged down in who may play SG or if you think Crowder will play PF.  Here is my analysis of this.

PG, no change, that is easy.  At SG, Hayward for Bradley is most likely the most impactful change.  I think the consensus is that this is an upgrade but my view is that this is closer than most people think.  More scoring yes but less defense and intangibles.  I also think Hayward is more durable which is important.

At SF, Tatum in for Green is an interesting one.  I view this as good for both the near term and the long term.

Our bigs is where there is the most change.  I see Morris for Johnson as an upgrade but Zizic in for Olynyk as a downgrade, at least to start.  The net of the combination may end up being a wash although Zizic may improve.  Baynes and Theis should be an upgrade over Zeller and Mickey but these are bench players who won't move the needle all that much.

Nader, Ojeleye, and who ever ends up replacing Jerebko just don't make that much difference.

I think this all adds up to us being only a little better than last year in terms of wins and loses but I like the roster much better in terms of how we are set up for the future.  Tatum, Zizic, and even Ojeleye are all nice additions.


Thomas      Thomas   
Smart        Smart   
Rozier        Rozier   
         
Bradley      Hayward    Up
Brown        Brown   
Hunter       Nader      Wash
         
Crowder      Crowder   
Green         Tatum      Up
Young         Ojeleye    Wash
         
Johnson       Morris      Up
Olynyk        Zizic         Down
Jerebko       TBD   
         
Horford      Horford   
Zeller         Baynes    Up
Mickey       Theis       Up

What was our GREATEST WEAKNESS last year?  Well, it could be two-fold.  Lack of rebounding and being one of, if NOT the SOFTEST team on the interior.  Zizic helps to fix that.  35 rebounds in the last three summer games!!!  Olynyk was horrifically and frustratingly INCONSISTENT and was an absolute terrible one on one post defender and a weak rebounder.  I think Zizic, based on our needs, makes us better NOW.

Saying that Baynes and Theis SHOULD BE an upgrade over Zeller and Mickey is truly laughable!!!  Baynes was rated out as the 10th best center defender last year according to defensive RPM on ESPN's plus/minus!!!  Zeller was absolutely a TERRIBLE defender!!  Mickey should NOT even be mentioned as he could NOT even dominate for our Red Claws!!  Theis was the defensive player of the year in his German Pro League!!!  Come on man!!

Regarding Nader and Semi vs. Jerebko.  I LOVED JJ, but Nader to literally about do it all.  I saw him play in PERSON twice at the Greensboro Swarm.  In the first game on February 24th, he dropped 32 with 9 assists, 8 rebounds, 1 steal, and 1 block!!  I see a lot of Evan Turner in Nader.  He can facilitate, rebound, score, and is a pretty good defender (which ET was not, but ET did play decent D in his last year in Boston!!)!!

Tatum for Green is a HUGE up!!  Tatum can flat be a good defender, but GG could not be a good defender on his BEST day.  And I loved me some GG and regularly drove about 2 hours each way to see GG and Amir play for the Fayetteville Patriots!!

If we do NOT win 60 games with this team in the weak Eastern Conference (an upgrade from the 53 we won last year!!), I will be disappointed.

Smitty77

All good discussion.  My point with Baynes and Theis is that I don't think they will play an important enough role to move the needle all that much.  Same with Nader and some others.  I like all those pieces though.

I think you will be shocked by what a big role Baynes plays in our success.  I am hoping that Theis can as well, but I truly don't know much at all about him.

Nader is like a Swiss Army knife (but he is an Egyptian Army knife:-))))!!

Smitty77

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2017, 12:06:18 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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60 wins

The 1 on 1 comparison isn't perfect but i'll give it a shot:

Gordon Hayward > Avery Bradley
Marcus Morris > Kelly Olynyk
Aron Baynes = Amir Johnson

Jaylen Brown > Jaylen Brown last year
Terry Rozier > Terry Rozier last year
Marcus Smart > Marcus Smart last year

Jayson Tatum > Jonas Jerebko
Ante Zizic = Tyler Zeller

Semi Ojeleye and Guerschon Yabusele > James Young and Jordan Mickey
Abdel Nader > Demetrious Jackson

I agree for the most part.  However, Amir is washed up physically, so in their current states, Baynes is CLEARLY the better of the two.  Amir simply cannot play more than 12 minutes of semi-quality time.

Zizic is a better player in his sleep than Zeller ever was or will be!!

Smitty77

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2017, 12:20:36 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Hayward was the big prize of the off-season and we got him. I absolutely loved what AB brought to our team and he will be missed, but Hayward is huge. The rest of the comparisons don't really even matter.

In saying that, you have Zizic in for KO when it should be Baynes for KO. That is a much more even trade-off. Zizic is going to be deep bench until he proves to better than Baynes (less likely) or Baynes moves on after this season (more likely).

tl;dr - we are DEFINITELY better!

Lol, I was thinking Morris for KO (upgrade) and Baynes for Amir, plus Zizic for Zeller, both upgrades.
Give us this pick, Almighty Red
And forgive us our tanking
As we forgive those who tanked against us
And lead us not into the lottery
But deliver us from losing

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Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2017, 12:33:11 PM »

Offline Rosco917

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60 wins

The 1 on 1 comparison isn't perfect but i'll give it a shot:

Gordon Hayward > Avery Bradley
Marcus Morris > Kelly Olynyk
Aron Baynes = Amir Johnson

Jaylen Brown > Jaylen Brown last year
Terry Rozier > Terry Rozier last year
Marcus Smart > Marcus Smart last year

Jayson Tatum > Jonas Jerebko
Ante Zizic = Tyler Zeller

Semi Ojeleye and Guerschon Yabusele > James Young and Jordan Mickey
Abdel Nader > Demetrious Jackson


This ^ sums it up well.

IMO some questions need to be answered., besides the health of IT.

On paper we look like a better team.

I see many guys have Hayward penciled in at the 2, I just wonder if he can defend the 2 anywhere near as well as AB. I see quicker 2's blowing by him, and with IT as his backcourt partner, look for defense to be a problem, when played together.

The C's in general are a tougher team. The addition of Baynes, Morris along with Smart will be enough to keep the team from being man-handled.

We finally have a legit second go to scorer, and that's big. (Not counting the Tatum factor) Rebounding will again be a problem, I'm hoping for Morris to be a better rebounder than advertised, just from being out of Drummond's shadow. Baynes will definitely help too. We're much less of a finesse team.

All in all, it may take time for the team to gel, while CBS looking for the best combinations to pair.

54-56 wins isn't out of the question.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2017, 12:35:30 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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60 wins

The 1 on 1 comparison isn't perfect but i'll give it a shot:

Gordon Hayward > Avery Bradley
Marcus Morris > Kelly Olynyk
Aron Baynes = Amir Johnson

Jaylen Brown > Jaylen Brown last year
Terry Rozier > Terry Rozier last year
Marcus Smart > Marcus Smart last year

Jayson Tatum > Jonas Jerebko
Ante Zizic = Tyler Zeller

Semi Ojeleye and Guerschon Yabusele > James Young and Jordan Mickey
Abdel Nader > Demetrious Jackson

I agree for the most part.  However, Amir is washed up physically, so in their current states, Baynes is CLEARLY the better of the two.  Amir simply cannot play more than 12 minutes of semi-quality time.

Zizic is a better player in his sleep than Zeller ever was or will be!!

Smitty77
I saw where Amir commented that he'd put on weight to play center for us but he was looking to lose weight to play PF for the Sixers.  It will be interesting to see if he looks any better for them.  They really only need him to play 10 to 12 minutes. 

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2017, 12:44:36 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I think fans will find out fairly quickly that we are significantly better, even if it means only a handful or more wins (I'd say 3-5 more).  Having a second go to player is going to make a world of difference and yes, Hayward is much better than AB.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2017, 12:45:51 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I think we are definitely better. 60 wins doesn't seem too far fetched.

We no longer need to rely on IT as much, we have Hayward to take a lot of pressure off him, then we have another potential go-to scorer off the bench in Tatum.

I like how the roster is constructed.
I AM A CELTIC

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2017, 01:03:35 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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One other factor that I did not express specifically is the question of whether the play of IT this coming season will be better than, equal to, or less than his play of last season.  He had such a phenomenal season, hard to think he will be better.  He has surprised me every step of the way so I don't want to doubt him.

I am not surprised that most see Hayward as more of an upgrade than I do but I am surprised at how much is being expected from Baynes and Zizic.  I like Morris as an upgrade over Johnson; Amir was by far our weakest position and I think Morris will start and I look at him as a positive replacement for Amir Johnson.  Not a world beater but definitely a plus over Amir.

Baynes gave Detroit 4 pts and 4 rebs in 15 minutes.  No doubt Baynes gives us a bruiser off the bench, something that will be nice to have, but I don't see his role being significant.  I am very high (hopeful?) on Zizic but just don't see that much from him this year.  I like both additions I just don't see either moving the team forward all that much.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2017, 01:09:54 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Our record last year should have several games better of. wins.   Between Zeller almost killing Al Horford and putiing him out and behind the learning curve , what seem ed like forever.  ....then we had to deal Avery s usual 4 weeks of i injuries , and IT messed up some as his leg was wearing out. This was at least 4-6 wins were missed.

The team should be better ....IF Smart , Horford and Hayward all stay good and healthy is critical

Baines and Morris and Crowder are the type of player that hurt everyone else , so im not worried about them .

Rozier should be improved at all phases .  Zizic overall offers more Fight and presence than Zeller pitaful exsistence .

Morris and Tatum should coverr KO points and defense.

My biggest fear is a one legged IT .  I just don't see how he can play 82 games with a torn hip and not repair the tear.   If he survives 10-15 games I will be amazed.


Biggest advantage  this year Haywards IQ > Bradleys
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 01:21:44 PM by SHAQATTACK »

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2017, 01:15:55 PM »

Offline Smartacus

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To be frank, I believe we are unequivocally better and really not even close. I would take this team 10 times out of 10 over last year's squad. The main reasons for this go as follows...

 8)*Please note I'm well aware that my views may be tinted by green colored glasses* 8)

1. I think Gordon Hayward is going to be a special fit in Boston and it will be far more impactful than people are giving him credit for. Hayward is an absolute stud moving into a system that fully utilizes his skill set. He has improved every year and in my opinion will have a unique on court bond with Horford, and provide Isaiah a pressure release valve unmatched by 95% of the players in the league.

2. We are such a bigger team than last year and the size difference from last year's squad will be stark from the first game we play. Look at the Warriors, they get all the credit in the world for being the most skilled team in the league(in history?) but arguably an equally important point is just how freaking large they are at every position. That size allows them to switch at everything on defense and shoot over nearly any defender on offense.

With the addition of Hayward, Tatum, Morris, Baynes, Semi, (Yabu?) and a conservative expectation of improvement from Smart and Brown I just don't see how we won't bully most teams at every spot save for Isaiah... and Isaiah clowns defenders whenever he gets the chance, degrading their self confidence. Bully ball at its finest.

3. Brad Stevens has so far made every roster put in front of him overachieve and now that we have arguably one of the more talented squads in the league I have no doubt that we will meet expectations and I will not count out that Brad will exceed them.

Bradley is a loss mitigated by rising young talent. Kelly is a loss mitigated by a shift to more physicality at the position. Nothing but clear skies for 2017 and beyond.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2017, 01:35:29 PM »

Offline KJ33

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Clearly better. 

But one thing I keep reading is how JB is/should be the starting 2.  I just don't see it...yet.  Hayward will be the starting 2 with Crowder at his customary 3 role, at least to start the year.  Crowder is a much better fit starting, likewise JB off the bench.  JB brings in energy off the bench, Crowder is the steady, gritty vet who knows his role as a starter.  Besides, not that this should be the sole determining factor, but Crowder is used to starting, I don't see him taking well to a bench role right out of the gate, and JB doesn't expect to start, he'll be fine with coming off the bench.

Getting Hayward (and then trading Bradley) was primarily to upgrade the starting backcourt as we had one of the smallest in the league last year.  He shoots as good if not better than Bradley, can create his own shot, unlike Bradley, and won't be posted up by opposing 2s. Imagine how many wide open 3s Crowder will get sharing the floor with IT and Hayward.  Sure, Hayward can, and will, play some 3, but I'm pretty sure that he starts at the 2 next to Thomas with Crowder at the 3.  Although with Stevens, it really doesn't matter what you call it because the 2/3 are both wings.  Whether Brad goes with Horford/Morris or Horford/Baynes as the 4/5 is yet to be determined.  That will depend on the fit he sees in training camp and/or depending on the matchups (or dare I say, another move/trade?).

The main point is, we need to put the brakes on the JB should start refrain, until and unless he wins the job at some point.  Less pressure coming off the bench, and should form the core of a dynamic second unit with Smart/Rozier and Tatum.

Re: Are we Better?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2017, 01:37:30 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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60 wins

The 1 on 1 comparison isn't perfect but i'll give it a shot:

Gordon Hayward > Avery Bradley
Marcus Morris > Kelly Olynyk
Aron Baynes = Amir Johnson

Jaylen Brown > Jaylen Brown last year
Terry Rozier > Terry Rozier last year
Marcus Smart > Marcus Smart last year

Jayson Tatum > Jonas Jerebko
Ante Zizic = Tyler Zeller

Semi Ojeleye and Guerschon Yabusele > James Young and Jordan Mickey
Abdel Nader > Demetrious Jackson

I agree for the most part.  However, Amir is washed up physically, so in their current states, Baynes is CLEARLY the better of the two.  Amir simply cannot play more than 12 minutes of semi-quality time.

Zizic is a better player in his sleep than Zeller ever was or will be!!

Smitty77
I saw where Amir commented that he'd put on weight to play center for us but he was looking to lose weight to play PF for the Sixers.  It will be interesting to see if he looks any better for them.  They really only need him to play 10 to 12 minutes.

He NOW plays for one of our rivals and enemies!!!  I like Amir, but he is NO LONGER a Celtic, so in most ways, I could care less.

Smitty77