Author Topic: Report(s): George sounding more willing to resign long-term with a superteam  (Read 7636 times)

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Offline Monkhouse

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can someone dig up our cap situation (luxury tax) that we were paying during the time of KG/PP/Ray? how big of a tax did we pay during that era?

2009-2010 Celticsblog post by our lovely Mr. Jeff Clark in an Q&A. I cannot really find exact roster on basketball-reference, (company blocked that website after realizing I used it frequently every day,)  :angel: so this will have to do.

Quote
More relevant is the luxury tax.  Basically, for teams that exceed the luxury tax, they pay a dollar for dollar penalty on amounts above the tax.  This money goes to the league, where it is divied up between the teams that stayed below the tax (again, this is overly simplistic, but you get the idea.) 

Last year, the luxury tax was $71.15 million million.  Our payroll at the end of the season, for luxury tax purposes, was roughly $79,188,973, meaning we paid a little over $8 million in luxury tax ($8,038,973, to be exact).  Coincidentally (or perhaps not) this was approximately the same amount of luxury tax we payed the year before.  We also missed out on a league subsidy that only goes to non-taxpayers, which has yet to be calculated.
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Offline celticsclay

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If a team like Boston or the Lakers isn't willing to include some of the high level prospects (or draft picks in Boston's case), I really don't know why the Pacers wouldn't just trade with the Cavs and make the Cavs take on some of the other longer contracts.  I mean Indiana could trade George, Ellis, and Jefferson for Love, Frye, and Jefferson (Felder and Tavares could be included as well for some "prospects").  Frye and Jefferson might very well retire, which saves the Pacers even more money and they still have Love whom they could move for more savings and/or prospects.  The Cavs get George and some solid bench depth in Ellis and Jefferson, while the Pacers just go into full on tank mode and try to build around Turner.

A few problems. The Pacers are not interested in Love and it seems like he doesn't have tons of interest around the league for whatever reason. So just assuming they can unload him when they have been unable to get a 3rd team into the mix seems like a pretty unlikely move.

For the Cavs Eliis and Jefferson are bad contracts at this point. Ellis has had his scoring decline for 4 straight seasons and was a complete non factor int he post season. Paying him 11 million next year on a team in luxury cap hell would be pretty tough to swallow. Jefferson is completely broken and down and cooked and his seen his mpg decline from 30 to 23 to 14 the last 3 seasons. At best his defense was average, but now he is so slow it is horrible and offsets the low post scoring he can provide. So the Cavs are taking on these two vets that don't help their team and further bloat their books while weakening the frontcourt in the hopes that George is a better 3rd star than Love? That seems like change just for the sake of change that may not even make them a better team.

Online Moranis

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If a team like Boston or the Lakers isn't willing to include some of the high level prospects (or draft picks in Boston's case), I really don't know why the Pacers wouldn't just trade with the Cavs and make the Cavs take on some of the other longer contracts.  I mean Indiana could trade George, Ellis, and Jefferson for Love, Frye, and Jefferson (Felder and Tavares could be included as well for some "prospects").  Frye and Jefferson might very well retire, which saves the Pacers even more money and they still have Love whom they could move for more savings and/or prospects.  The Cavs get George and some solid bench depth in Ellis and Jefferson, while the Pacers just go into full on tank mode and try to build around Turner.

A few problems. The Pacers are not interested in Love and it seems like he doesn't have tons of interest around the league for whatever reason. So just assuming they can unload him when they have been unable to get a 3rd team into the mix seems like a pretty unlikely move.

For the Cavs Eliis and Jefferson are bad contracts at this point. Ellis has had his scoring decline for 4 straight seasons and was a complete non factor int he post season. Paying him 11 million next year on a team in luxury cap hell would be pretty tough to swallow. Jefferson is completely broken and down and cooked and his seen his mpg decline from 30 to 23 to 14 the last 3 seasons. At best his defense was average, but now he is so slow it is horrible and offsets the low post scoring he can provide. So the Cavs are taking on these two vets that don't help their team and further bloat their books while weakening the frontcourt in the hopes that George is a better 3rd star than Love? That seems like change just for the sake of change that may not even make them a better team.
The Cavs obviously believe George is better than Love or they wouldn't have been trying to trade Love for George (I also agree with that sentiment, but I understand why people would prefer Love on that team).  Ellis and Jefferson are better than Frye and Jefferson (especially if they both retire) and thus that would also be an improvement.  Obviously that is a heavy tax load, but if the Cavs really believe George is better than Love, then that seems like a move that would make sense for them, as really Cleveland's one goal (outside of winning a title) should be to make the moves necessary to keep Lebron in town next summer.

I don't think the trade at the draft happened because there weren't as many teams available and the Pacers were holding out for a prime level asset (from LA or Boston or somewhere else).  I'd imagine at the very least, Love can be moved for a couple of late 1st's fairly easily at some point this summer.  Heck I could see Boston going for Love if they strike out in free agency or land someone like Hayward and thus want to get a PF for the starting lineup (though the money is harder to match).  I mean is it really hard to see Boston offering Indiana Crowder, Bradley, Rozier, Boston 2018 1st for Love (so Boston's starting 5 would be Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Love, Horford and would still have Brown, Tatum, Zizic, etc.).  A team like the Suns might decide to take a step up and give up a quality young player or two for Love.  Love doesn't expire next summer so if nothing else it buys Indiana another whole year to move a disgruntled "star", while also removing two contracts that don't make sense for a tanking team. 
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Offline celticsclay

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If a team like Boston or the Lakers isn't willing to include some of the high level prospects (or draft picks in Boston's case), I really don't know why the Pacers wouldn't just trade with the Cavs and make the Cavs take on some of the other longer contracts.  I mean Indiana could trade George, Ellis, and Jefferson for Love, Frye, and Jefferson (Felder and Tavares could be included as well for some "prospects").  Frye and Jefferson might very well retire, which saves the Pacers even more money and they still have Love whom they could move for more savings and/or prospects.  The Cavs get George and some solid bench depth in Ellis and Jefferson, while the Pacers just go into full on tank mode and try to build around Turner.

A few problems. The Pacers are not interested in Love and it seems like he doesn't have tons of interest around the league for whatever reason. So just assuming they can unload him when they have been unable to get a 3rd team into the mix seems like a pretty unlikely move.

For the Cavs Eliis and Jefferson are bad contracts at this point. Ellis has had his scoring decline for 4 straight seasons and was a complete non factor int he post season. Paying him 11 million next year on a team in luxury cap hell would be pretty tough to swallow. Jefferson is completely broken and down and cooked and his seen his mpg decline from 30 to 23 to 14 the last 3 seasons. At best his defense was average, but now he is so slow it is horrible and offsets the low post scoring he can provide. So the Cavs are taking on these two vets that don't help their team and further bloat their books while weakening the frontcourt in the hopes that George is a better 3rd star than Love? That seems like change just for the sake of change that may not even make them a better team.
The Cavs obviously believe George is better than Love or they wouldn't have been trying to trade Love for George (I also agree with that sentiment, but I understand why people would prefer Love on that team).  Ellis and Jefferson are better than Frye and Jefferson (especially if they both retire) and thus that would also be an improvement.  Obviously that is a heavy tax load, but if the Cavs really believe George is better than Love, then that seems like a move that would make sense for them, as really Cleveland's one goal (outside of winning a title) should be to make the moves necessary to keep Lebron in town next summer.

I don't think the trade at the draft happened because there weren't as many teams available and the Pacers were holding out for a prime level asset (from LA or Boston or somewhere else).  I'd imagine at the very least, Love can be moved for a couple of late 1st's fairly easily at some point this summer.  Heck I could see Boston going for Love if they strike out in free agency or land someone like Hayward and thus want to get a PF for the starting lineup (though the money is harder to match).  I mean is it really hard to see Boston offering Indiana Crowder, Bradley, Rozier, Boston 2018 1st for Love (so Boston's starting 5 would be Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Love, Horford and would still have Brown, Tatum, Zizic, etc.).  A team like the Suns might decide to take a step up and give up a quality young player or two for Love.  Love doesn't expire next summer so if nothing else it buys Indiana another whole year to move a disgruntled "star", while also removing two contracts that don't make sense for a tanking team.

I think you are really discounting the fact that Ellis and Jefferson take up roster spots that prevent them from filling out their roster with players that have skills they need (namely some athleticism, young legs and defense). Also I don't agree with you assertion that Jefferson is better than Frye for them. Frye has been a truly elite 3 point shooting that has played critical roles in games for them the last 3 seasons. He averaged 9 points and 3.5 rebounds in 18 minutes a game for them last year while shooting 40% from 3. How exactly is Jefferson's, who also misses 20 games a year, an upgrade from that? You then add in the fact that Ellis is a 31% 3 point shooter and the Cavs are also losing Love's elite 3pt shooting (45% in the playoffs!) and they are really hurting their team multiple times. Furthermore, their presence on the roster and crazy luxury tax bill limits their ability to get free agent vets or buyout guys that will be far superior to the basketball corpses of Jefferson and Ellis. Do you not realize how bad these guys are?

Online Moranis

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If a team like Boston or the Lakers isn't willing to include some of the high level prospects (or draft picks in Boston's case), I really don't know why the Pacers wouldn't just trade with the Cavs and make the Cavs take on some of the other longer contracts.  I mean Indiana could trade George, Ellis, and Jefferson for Love, Frye, and Jefferson (Felder and Tavares could be included as well for some "prospects").  Frye and Jefferson might very well retire, which saves the Pacers even more money and they still have Love whom they could move for more savings and/or prospects.  The Cavs get George and some solid bench depth in Ellis and Jefferson, while the Pacers just go into full on tank mode and try to build around Turner.

A few problems. The Pacers are not interested in Love and it seems like he doesn't have tons of interest around the league for whatever reason. So just assuming they can unload him when they have been unable to get a 3rd team into the mix seems like a pretty unlikely move.

For the Cavs Eliis and Jefferson are bad contracts at this point. Ellis has had his scoring decline for 4 straight seasons and was a complete non factor int he post season. Paying him 11 million next year on a team in luxury cap hell would be pretty tough to swallow. Jefferson is completely broken and down and cooked and his seen his mpg decline from 30 to 23 to 14 the last 3 seasons. At best his defense was average, but now he is so slow it is horrible and offsets the low post scoring he can provide. So the Cavs are taking on these two vets that don't help their team and further bloat their books while weakening the frontcourt in the hopes that George is a better 3rd star than Love? That seems like change just for the sake of change that may not even make them a better team.
The Cavs obviously believe George is better than Love or they wouldn't have been trying to trade Love for George (I also agree with that sentiment, but I understand why people would prefer Love on that team).  Ellis and Jefferson are better than Frye and Jefferson (especially if they both retire) and thus that would also be an improvement.  Obviously that is a heavy tax load, but if the Cavs really believe George is better than Love, then that seems like a move that would make sense for them, as really Cleveland's one goal (outside of winning a title) should be to make the moves necessary to keep Lebron in town next summer.

I don't think the trade at the draft happened because there weren't as many teams available and the Pacers were holding out for a prime level asset (from LA or Boston or somewhere else).  I'd imagine at the very least, Love can be moved for a couple of late 1st's fairly easily at some point this summer.  Heck I could see Boston going for Love if they strike out in free agency or land someone like Hayward and thus want to get a PF for the starting lineup (though the money is harder to match).  I mean is it really hard to see Boston offering Indiana Crowder, Bradley, Rozier, Boston 2018 1st for Love (so Boston's starting 5 would be Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Love, Horford and would still have Brown, Tatum, Zizic, etc.).  A team like the Suns might decide to take a step up and give up a quality young player or two for Love.  Love doesn't expire next summer so if nothing else it buys Indiana another whole year to move a disgruntled "star", while also removing two contracts that don't make sense for a tanking team.

I think you are really discounting the fact that Ellis and Jefferson take up roster spots that prevent them from filling out their roster with players that have skills they need (namely some athleticism, young legs and defense). Also I don't agree with you assertion that Jefferson is better than Frye for them. Frye has been a truly elite 3 point shooting that has played critical roles in games for them the last 3 seasons. He averaged 9 points and 3.5 rebounds in 18 minutes a game for them last year while shooting 40% from 3. How exactly is Jefferson's, who also misses 20 games a year, an upgrade from that? You then add in the fact that Ellis is a 31% 3 point shooter and the Cavs are also losing Love's elite 3pt shooting (45% in the playoffs!) and they are really hurting their team multiple times. Furthermore, their presence on the roster and crazy luxury tax bill limits their ability to get free agent vets or buyout guys that will be far superior to the basketball corpses of Jefferson and Ellis. Do you not realize how bad these guys are?
why are you talking about Love when talking about Jefferson and Ellis?  George is the player replacing Love both in the starting lineup and production wise.  Frye and Jefferson are both seriously considering retirement (see http://cavaliersnation.com/2017/06/23/report-richard-jefferson-and-channing-frye-could-be-looking-to-retire-to-free-up-cap-space-for-cavs/).  If they retire, what they did this year or might do next year makes no difference.  So you are essentially adding Jefferson and Ellis to two empty roster spots.  Now maybe you think the Cavs are going to land better players for the minimum to fill those two roster spots.  I don't.  But again this is about acquiring George, not acquiring Jefferson and Ellis. 
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Offline clevelandceltic

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I dont think you can apply the tax situation of the 07-08 team to today. Different circumstances and different level of tax payments. 

Offline celticsclay

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If a team like Boston or the Lakers isn't willing to include some of the high level prospects (or draft picks in Boston's case), I really don't know why the Pacers wouldn't just trade with the Cavs and make the Cavs take on some of the other longer contracts.  I mean Indiana could trade George, Ellis, and Jefferson for Love, Frye, and Jefferson (Felder and Tavares could be included as well for some "prospects").  Frye and Jefferson might very well retire, which saves the Pacers even more money and they still have Love whom they could move for more savings and/or prospects.  The Cavs get George and some solid bench depth in Ellis and Jefferson, while the Pacers just go into full on tank mode and try to build around Turner.

A few problems. The Pacers are not interested in Love and it seems like he doesn't have tons of interest around the league for whatever reason. So just assuming they can unload him when they have been unable to get a 3rd team into the mix seems like a pretty unlikely move.

For the Cavs Eliis and Jefferson are bad contracts at this point. Ellis has had his scoring decline for 4 straight seasons and was a complete non factor int he post season. Paying him 11 million next year on a team in luxury cap hell would be pretty tough to swallow. Jefferson is completely broken and down and cooked and his seen his mpg decline from 30 to 23 to 14 the last 3 seasons. At best his defense was average, but now he is so slow it is horrible and offsets the low post scoring he can provide. So the Cavs are taking on these two vets that don't help their team and further bloat their books while weakening the frontcourt in the hopes that George is a better 3rd star than Love? That seems like change just for the sake of change that may not even make them a better team.
The Cavs obviously believe George is better than Love or they wouldn't have been trying to trade Love for George (I also agree with that sentiment, but I understand why people would prefer Love on that team).  Ellis and Jefferson are better than Frye and Jefferson (especially if they both retire) and thus that would also be an improvement.  Obviously that is a heavy tax load, but if the Cavs really believe George is better than Love, then that seems like a move that would make sense for them, as really Cleveland's one goal (outside of winning a title) should be to make the moves necessary to keep Lebron in town next summer.

I don't think the trade at the draft happened because there weren't as many teams available and the Pacers were holding out for a prime level asset (from LA or Boston or somewhere else).  I'd imagine at the very least, Love can be moved for a couple of late 1st's fairly easily at some point this summer.  Heck I could see Boston going for Love if they strike out in free agency or land someone like Hayward and thus want to get a PF for the starting lineup (though the money is harder to match).  I mean is it really hard to see Boston offering Indiana Crowder, Bradley, Rozier, Boston 2018 1st for Love (so Boston's starting 5 would be Thomas, Smart, Hayward, Love, Horford and would still have Brown, Tatum, Zizic, etc.).  A team like the Suns might decide to take a step up and give up a quality young player or two for Love.  Love doesn't expire next summer so if nothing else it buys Indiana another whole year to move a disgruntled "star", while also removing two contracts that don't make sense for a tanking team.

I think you are really discounting the fact that Ellis and Jefferson take up roster spots that prevent them from filling out their roster with players that have skills they need (namely some athleticism, young legs and defense). Also I don't agree with you assertion that Jefferson is better than Frye for them. Frye has been a truly elite 3 point shooting that has played critical roles in games for them the last 3 seasons. He averaged 9 points and 3.5 rebounds in 18 minutes a game for them last year while shooting 40% from 3. How exactly is Jefferson's, who also misses 20 games a year, an upgrade from that? You then add in the fact that Ellis is a 31% 3 point shooter and the Cavs are also losing Love's elite 3pt shooting (45% in the playoffs!) and they are really hurting their team multiple times. Furthermore, their presence on the roster and crazy luxury tax bill limits their ability to get free agent vets or buyout guys that will be far superior to the basketball corpses of Jefferson and Ellis. Do you not realize how bad these guys are?
why are you talking about Love when talking about Jefferson and Ellis?  George is the player replacing Love both in the starting lineup and production wise.  Frye and Jefferson are both seriously considering retirement (see http://cavaliersnation.com/2017/06/23/report-richard-jefferson-and-channing-frye-could-be-looking-to-retire-to-free-up-cap-space-for-cavs/).  If they retire, what they did this year or might do next year makes no difference.  So you are essentially adding Jefferson and Ellis to two empty roster spots.  Now maybe you think the Cavs are going to land better players for the minimum to fill those two roster spots.  I don't.  But again this is about acquiring George, not acquiring Jefferson and Ellis.

I am saying that I do think the Cavs can get better players with minimum roster spots.
They essentially got Bogut and Deron Williams for the minimum for last year while the warriors got David West and Zaza for near it to name a few that jump to mind. This year it has been rumored that Zach Randolph, Vince Carter will sign with a contender (but possibly the warriors) for the minimum. Tony Allen may be available for close to that. Perhaps David Lee.

Obviously players like Wade and Anthony are rumored to enter the buyout market at some point as well.

I am not sure the Cavs are any better with George than they are with Love. I definitely don't think if they are marginally better it is worth taking on 18 million in bad contracts next year in Ellis and Jefferson just to do so. I am also curious how this trade works under the CBA. Frye makes 7.8 million and Jefferson makes 2.5. Love Makes 21.5 (total of 31). The 3 pacers combine to make 39.5 million....

Offline Phantom255x

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I just realized.. WHAT IF we trade for George, then Cleveland beats us in the ECF, and next year George signs with Cleveland (aka another KD move..)  :o
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Offline Real World

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So George gets traded to the Celtics, after the Celtics sign Hayward. That means the Celtics have this year as a "superteam" without having to pay luxury taxes. They will have to sign IT and George to max contracts the following year when both are free agents.

That gives the Celtics about two years of luxury tax payments to compete with the 4some of IT, Hayward, Horford, George. Then Horford's contract runs out. Then it's time to pay Brown. Can't help but wonder how long ownership will stay in the luxury tax area.

Yeah, I think that's more of the ultimate problem. Affordability isn't an issue for the next three or so years. The real issue would be picking and choosing who to keep and who to let go  when all of Hayward, George, Horford, Brown, Tatum, etc. start coming up for new contracts.

Then again, if all would go as planned we wouldn't have to resign several of those players if players like Brown, Tatum, the eventual Brooklyn pick, etc. end up reaching their star potential. Theoretically, we could let those guys walk and have a much younger core just coming into their big contracts at that time.

There's also the possibility that a Brown, Tatum, and/or the Nets pick blossom to the point that Heyward, IT, or George become expendable before their contracts expire, and they are traded for future parts, or simply to shed the contract.  In essence it would be a wonderful problem to have. Having so many good players that you have to trade some. 

Offline celticsclay

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I just realized.. WHAT IF we trade for George, then Cleveland beats us in the ECF, and next year George signs with Cleveland (aka another KD move..)  :o

It is not even close to possible. The only reason the Durant move was able to happen was because of the cap spike that will not be repeated. The Cavs could offer George the minimum or possibly the mid level exception. Considering this will be the big pay day of his career there is no way that happens (It has never happened in the Modern age for a player at that point in his career). It is WAY more likely that the Lakers work all year to clear room and they both go to LA. If George doesn't get traded somewhere he decides to stay (boston seemingly the most likely) seems pretty likely James bolts Cleveland and Cleveland becomes pretty irrelevant again with their 1 title to show for a decade of Lebron, not in Jordan's League, James.

Offline SHAQATTACK

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why CP3 will enever be a major part of a title ..... maybe a 36 year old also there bench role player for some team......he is not wiling to play anywhere but CA. basically .....At least LeBron went back to Cleveland . CP3 don't give a flip about his roots.

Offline celticsclay

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why CP3 will enever be a major part of a title ..... maybe a 36 year old also there bench role player for some team......he is not wiling to play anywhere but CA. basically .....At least LeBron went back to Cleveland . CP3 don't give a flip about his roots.

I am confused why you are saying Chris Paul will never be a major part of a title because he is not willing to play anywhere besides California when he is on his way to Houston Texas to join the number 3 seed from last year....

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I just realized.. WHAT IF we trade for George, then Cleveland beats us in the ECF, and next year George signs with Cleveland (aka another KD move..)  :o

oh ...gessse......always with negitive waves.... ;D

Offline SHAQATTACK

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why CP3 will enever be a major part of a title ..... maybe a 36 year old also there bench role player for some team......he is not wiling to play anywhere but CA. basically .....At least LeBron went back to Cleveland . CP3 don't give a flip about his roots.

I am confused why you are saying Chris Paul will never be a major part of a title because he is not willing to play anywhere besides California when he is on his way to Houston Texas to join the number 3 seed from last year....

LOL....my apologies,......i haven't seen the news today
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 06:50:58 PM by SHAQATTACK »

Offline Phantom255x

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I just realized.. WHAT IF we trade for George, then Cleveland beats us in the ECF, and next year George signs with Cleveland (aka another KD move..)  :o

oh ...gessse......always with negitive waves.... ;D

When I first read that I thought you said "wives" LOL  :o

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