Author Topic: Great article shows a lot to think about.  (Read 5146 times)

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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Horford was a great signing.  It's not even debatable.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2017, 11:59:02 AM »

Offline johnnygreen

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Can we go ahead and rename this topic as the Al Horford appreciation thread?

Is Al worth a max contract? Last off season, I would have said no. After all that has happened since his signing, Al has proved to be worth every dollar.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2017, 12:23:29 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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If you add Paul George and Gordon Hayward this offseason but trade away Al Horford then are we a better team than just adding Hayward?

No, Horford is a great big for this team. Without him we would have no starter level bigs, we would be less of a destination and would definitely not have seen this level of development with our guards. It is not a coincidence that we have vaulted to the top since he joined. To not acknowledge him is doing a disservice to the whole of the team

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2017, 12:46:22 PM »

Offline RockinRyA

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OP is just looking for reasons to justify his hatred of the Horford signing.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2017, 03:23:57 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Summer 2016

"Celtics can never sign a big time FA.  No big name ever wants to come to Boston."

Summer 2017

"Celtics just made the conference finals for the first time post Big Three era but Horford's contract is killing us!!!"

Ummm no I hated the signing of Horford when we did it.  But nice try.  I like the player but he was not worth the money for his age.  If it was 25 year old Horford worth it all day.  But Horford's contract was only going to be worth it with Durrant because he was the perfect complementary piece for him with Isaiah Thomas. But without Durant the signing was bad.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2017, 03:29:51 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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OP is just looking for reasons to justify his hatred of the Horford signing.

The OP was to bring up the signing of Hayward and George trade could be something to look at long term.  Yes, not a fan of the Horford sighing but personal thought of it.  Plus looking at the fact Thomas is probably going to get a long term max deal which would be stupid as well, I feel.  It was also to have an actual discussion of basketball, and not just a focus of one topic brought up in the OP.  Which I'm taking a guess not many people read the article in the OP.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2017, 03:40:41 PM »

Offline incoherent

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Hey OP... You cant straight up ignore the fact that without Horford there is no option to get Hayward/Grffin or Paul.

Horford was a top 5 player in the playoffs this past season, he's a huge part of the reason anyone wants to sign with us.  So OP, what do you have to say about that? Can you address this simple fact.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2017, 03:41:23 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Mike

(My name is not Mike)

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2017, 04:18:12 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Hey OP... You cant straight up ignore the fact that without Horford there is no option to get Hayward/Grffin or Paul.

Horford was a top 5 player in the playoffs this past season, he's a huge part of the reason anyone wants to sign with us.  So OP, what do you have to say about that? Can you address this simple fact.

You can can straight up ignore that fact simply for this, no Horford you'd have max money for two players.  If we didn't sign Horford to a deal.  So then guess what you'd have both Griffin and Hayward.  Hayward looked at Boston as soon as we signed Stevens as our couch. 

Horford a Top 5 player in this playoffs that's a joke.  Here's a list of better players in playoffs this season. 
1. James
2. Irving
3. Durrent
4. Curry
5. Leonard
6. Wall
7. George
8. Westbrook
9. Harden
10. Thomas
11. Green
12. The Greek Freak
13. Thompson
14. Love

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2017, 04:23:36 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Hey OP... You cant straight up ignore the fact that without Horford there is no option to get Hayward/Grffin or Paul.

Horford was a top 5 player in the playoffs this past season, he's a huge part of the reason anyone wants to sign with us.  So OP, what do you have to say about that? Can you address this simple fact.

Nah man, they'd totally be willing to sign with a 7th or 8th seeded team that lost in the 1st round for the 3rd straight year.  Honestly, who wouldn't leave the 4th and 5th best teams in the West to join a low seeded playoff team in the weaker conference?
I'm bitter.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2017, 11:14:29 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Hey OP... You cant straight up ignore the fact that without Horford there is no option to get Hayward/Grffin or Paul.

Horford was a top 5 player in the playoffs this past season, he's a huge part of the reason anyone wants to sign with us.  So OP, what do you have to say about that? Can you address this simple fact.

Nah man, they'd totally be willing to sign with a 7th or 8th seeded team that lost in the 1st round for the 3rd straight year.  Honestly, who wouldn't leave the 4th and 5th best teams in the West to join a low seeded playoff team in the weaker conference?
Boston won 48 games and tied for the 3rd best record the prior year without Horford.  Why would you assume Boston would regress when it added the 3rd pick in the draft to basically the same core (I know there is the Sullinger issue, but he could have been replaced)?  You see, adding Horford added just 5 wins to the team.  He obviously was an integral player in the playoffs, but he didn't do much for the regular season and not signing Horford didn't mean not signing anyone.  It also didn't mean that Boston might not have made a move at the deadline.  Maybe since Boston would still have max room, it would have acquired Cousins, or Ibaka, or Noel, etc. at the deadline because it could keep those players (if it wanted) and still have max room.  How much different does the team look this summer with Cousins instead of Horford or room for two max contracts (hello Griffin and Hayward and a trade for George). 

Once Durant passed on Boston, Horford's signing didn't make any real sense for the team.  He is much older than everyone else on the roster, is no where near a #1 player, isn't a go to scorer, isn't a great rebounder, etc.  He is a very good 3rd best player, but on a team that doesn't have the #1 guy, you don't give out a max contract to a 3rd best player type guy when you didn't need to (last summer is not this summer i.e. if Boston doesn't use the cap space this summer it won't exist next summer unless core players aren't retained). 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2017, 11:46:16 AM »

Offline mmmmm

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Hey OP... You cant straight up ignore the fact that without Horford there is no option to get Hayward/Grffin or Paul.

Horford was a top 5 player in the playoffs this past season, he's a huge part of the reason anyone wants to sign with us.  So OP, what do you have to say about that? Can you address this simple fact.

You can can straight up ignore that fact simply for this, no Horford you'd have max money for two players.  If we didn't sign Horford to a deal.  So then guess what you'd have both Griffin and Hayward.  Hayward looked at Boston as soon as we signed Stevens as our couch. 

Horford a Top 5 player in this playoffs that's a joke.  Here's a list of better players in playoffs this season. 
1. James
2. Irving
3. Durrent
4. Curry
5. Leonard
6. Wall
7. George
8. Westbrook
9. Harden
10. Thomas
11. Green
12. The Greek Freak
13. Thompson
14. Love

The playoffs can be tricky for comparisons because each individual plays different numbers of games and against different opponents.   All you can really say is how a player did in the games he played against the opponents he faced.

In the Bulls series, Horford was definitely the best player on either team.  He had the highest GmSc average of any player, accrued the most Win Shares and at the highest rate.  He had the highest scoring efficiency and the highest assist rates and of the players with at least 100 minutes had the 2nd highest defensive rebounding rate.

In the Wizard series, he was second or third behind Isaiah (who was clearly the best player in that series) and Wall in most offensive categories, but still had the edge over those guys in some (he led that series again with an unreal scoring efficiency of 77.6%!!!) and overall had a fantastic series.

His CLE series was forgettable, as it was for all the Celtics.

I dunno if I would say he was 'top 5' because it's really hard to compare to how other players performed in other series.   And the simple existence of Lebron, Durant and Leonard automatically mean it would only take two other names to bump him out of the top 5. 

But he was definitely one of the top two Celtic players in the playoffs and the Celtics made it to the ECF.   That counts for quite a lot, imho.
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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 12:20:16 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Hey OP... You cant straight up ignore the fact that without Horford there is no option to get Hayward/Grffin or Paul.

Horford was a top 5 player in the playoffs this past season, he's a huge part of the reason anyone wants to sign with us.  So OP, what do you have to say about that? Can you address this simple fact.

Nah man, they'd totally be willing to sign with a 7th or 8th seeded team that lost in the 1st round for the 3rd straight year.  Honestly, who wouldn't leave the 4th and 5th best teams in the West to join a low seeded playoff team in the weaker conference?
Boston won 48 games and tied for the 3rd best record the prior year without Horford.  Why would you assume Boston would regress when it added the 3rd pick in the draft to basically the same core (I know there is the Sullinger issue, but he could have been replaced)?  You see, adding Horford added just 5 wins to the team.  He obviously was an integral player in the playoffs, but he didn't do much for the regular season and not signing Horford didn't mean not signing anyone.  It also didn't mean that Boston might not have made a move at the deadline.  Maybe since Boston would still have max room, it would have acquired Cousins, or Ibaka, or Noel, etc. at the deadline because it could keep those players (if it wanted) and still have max room.  How much different does the team look this summer with Cousins instead of Horford or room for two max contracts (hello Griffin and Hayward and a trade for George). 

Once Durant passed on Boston, Horford's signing didn't make any real sense for the team.  He is much older than everyone else on the roster, is no where near a #1 player, isn't a go to scorer, isn't a great rebounder, etc.  He is a very good 3rd best player, but on a team that doesn't have the #1 guy, you don't give out a max contract to a 3rd best player type guy when you didn't need to (last summer is not this summer i.e. if Boston doesn't use the cap space this summer it won't exist next summer unless core players aren't retained).

The best bigs on that team would have been Amir Johnson (who I think we can all agree regressed this year) and... Kelly Olynyk? Add in AB's injury and that team is worse than the 2016 team. Maybe we sign a decent big on an Amir-style contract, but I'd still rate that team as worse than last year's. You're right that 7th or 8th would be too fat to fall, but I doubt we would have had home court advantage in the first round, and it would not have been the free agent destination it currently is

And let's dispelled the notion that adding Horford added "just 5 wins to the team".  First off, going from 48 wins to 53 is a huge jump - that's a lot different than going from, say, a 35 win team to a 40 win team. Saying "just 5" in this case is disingenuous.

And even if it wasn't, Horford added more than 5 wins to this team. Last year in the playoffs we won 2 games, and lost in the first round. This year we won 9 games and made it all the way to the ECF. That's a huge change, and not something the team could have done without him. No, having just him with no Durant is not the bestimate case scenario, but that doesn't mean it's a bad situation
I'm bitter.