Author Topic: Great article shows a lot to think about.  (Read 5145 times)

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Great article shows a lot to think about.
« on: June 27, 2017, 05:53:48 PM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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This article gave me a lot to think about, and also showed why Al Horford contract was one of the worst we could have done in the long run. Yes, he did help us get to the Eastern Conference Finals, but did he hurt us building in the future. Especially with a chance like this summer with Hayward and George.  Also it kind of puts in perspective I feel showing Isaiah Thomas isn't going to be worth a Max contract. Plus also showing us the value of Avery Bradley's as well as his contract and also Marcus Smart value.  This is also not including the Lakers pick that we might have next year in the money that they talk about period unless they're talking about that getting traded for Paul George.

To me this almost makes me want to see if there is a trade option for Al Horford and Isaiah Thomas.  For the simple reason if we want the two stars to be Gordon Hayward and Paul George, these two could really hurt us in the money situation period because I don't honestly see the Celtics paying that much in luxury tax. 

Or this just means our better course of action is just to stay put, make a small signing this offseason for another score and interior presents for rebounding and blocking. Then trying to go after a Gordon Haywood for max deal. I just found this article very interesting because it sheds some light about the salary cap and what's going to happen to us. Especially if we're going to try to pay Isaiah Thomas of Max deal. Figured I'd see what everybody else's opinion would be on it because it was an interesting read.

http://www.celticslife.com/2017/06/how-luxury-tax-may-affect-free-agency.html?m=1

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2017, 06:11:05 PM »

Offline Granath

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This article gave me a lot to think about, and also showed why Al Horford contract was one of the worst we could have done in the long run. Yes, he did help us get to the Eastern Conference Finals, but did he hurt us building in the future. Especially with a chance like this summer with Hayward and George.  Also it kind of puts in perspective I feel showing Isaiah Thomas isn't going to be worth a Max contract. Plus also showing us the value of Avery Bradley's as well as his contract and also Marcus Smart value.  This is also not including the Lakers pick that we might have next year in the money that they talk about period unless they're talking about that getting traded for Paul George.

To me this almost makes me want to see if there is a trade option for Al Horford and Isaiah Thomas.  For the simple reason if we want the two stars to be Gordon Hayward and Paul George, these two could really hurt us in the money situation period because I don't honestly see the Celtics paying that much in luxury tax. 

Or this just means our better course of action is just to stay put, make a small signing this offseason for another score and interior presents for rebounding and blocking. Then trying to go after a Gordon Haywood for max deal. I just found this article very interesting because it sheds some light about the salary cap and what's going to happen to us. Especially if we're going to try to pay Isaiah Thomas of Max deal. Figured I'd see what everybody else's opinion would be on it because it was an interesting read.

http://www.celticslife.com/2017/06/how-luxury-tax-may-affect-free-agency.html?m=1

If that's what you're getting out of that article then you need to re-evaluate your predispositions. Horford's signing wasn't a mistake. It was a coup.

1. There was never any indication that the Cs would get Paul George in a trade deal until recently. You're looking at the situation with 20/20 hindsight. Yes, we will be in a cap/tax crunch with 4 superstars. Guess what? So is every other team. 

2. Without Horford we don't make the ECF. Without making the ECF, Paul George almost certainly isn't as interested in coming here. So we wouldn't be having this discussion without that event happening.

3. Horford was the first major signing of any FA to Boston. The narrative of "FAs don't go to Boston - especially those of color" ended the moment Horford signed. For this reason alone the signing was worth it to end the stigma of the Celtics being a "white man's team".

4. It also was an attempt to get into the KD sweepstakes and frankly it worked. We went from a non-entity to an attractive destination. Just like signing Hayward may lead to PG13.

Signing Al got us into this position. Without him we're not having this discussion. Hence, considering this a bad thing is taking a rather dim view of things. Any time you have a team packed with superstars you're going to run into cap issues. That's why James Harden plays in Houston rather than OKC. That's why the Cavs are in dire straits. That's why Golden State is already planning the departure of Klay. But unlike all of those teams, we have top talent coming up behind these superstars where there's a reasonable hope that they can fill actually step into shoes of these greats.
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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2017, 06:12:43 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Without the addition of Horford we wouldn't even be in the conversation for Hayward or George.

We would not be the 2nd best team in the East, we would not have got to the ECF, we would not be front runners for Hayward or Griffin and we would not be good enough to convince Paul George to stay, we may not even be good enough now.

Al Horford was a great pickup for this team.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2017, 08:33:09 PM »

Offline timpiker

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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 10:05:07 AM »

Offline Celtics978Fan

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Got to love how I give one of many opinion on the article in the first sentence and that's all that's focused on.  Yes, without Horford a lot might not happen.  But was he worth the max deal at his age, I don't think so.  Yes, that's the market value I get it but that's not what I'm looking at.

Yes, we'd still be in the market for Hayward he's been tied to us since Stevens.  We'd also be in a running for free agents no matter because we'd have the most money with a young team. 

But what I think most people didn't see.  This article shows by doing this we are going having into luxury tax next year a lot  by doing these deals and won't be able to do future moves in free agency.  Not saying I hate this if this happens but I'm wanting to win titles.  I don't see Thomas winning us a title, not saying he's a bad player.  But would you give a soon to be 30 year old when contract begins, coming off a hip injury which has ended careers?

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 10:13:32 AM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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This article gave me a lot to think about, and also showed why Al Horford contract was one of the worst we could have done in the long run. Yes, he did help us get to the Eastern Conference Finals, but did he hurt us building in the future. Especially with a chance like this summer with Hayward and George.  Also it kind of puts in perspective I feel showing Isaiah Thomas isn't going to be worth a Max contract. Plus also showing us the value of Avery Bradley's as well as his contract and also Marcus Smart value.  This is also not including the Lakers pick that we might have next year in the money that they talk about period unless they're talking about that getting traded for Paul George.

To me this almost makes me want to see if there is a trade option for Al Horford and Isaiah Thomas.  For the simple reason if we want the two stars to be Gordon Hayward and Paul George, these two could really hurt us in the money situation period because I don't honestly see the Celtics paying that much in luxury tax. 

Or this just means our better course of action is just to stay put, make a small signing this offseason for another score and interior presents for rebounding and blocking. Then trying to go after a Gordon Haywood for max deal. I just found this article very interesting because it sheds some light about the salary cap and what's going to happen to us. Especially if we're going to try to pay Isaiah Thomas of Max deal. Figured I'd see what everybody else's opinion would be on it because it was an interesting read.

http://www.celticslife.com/2017/06/how-luxury-tax-may-affect-free-agency.html?m=1

If we dont get Horford we are probably the #6 seed and lose in the first round.

Do you think Hayward leaves the Jazz for that?

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 10:19:24 AM »

Offline fantankerous

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This article gave me a lot to think about, and also showed why Al Horford contract was one of the worst we could have done in the long run. Yes, he did help us get to the Eastern Conference Finals, but did he hurt us building in the future. Especially with a chance like this summer with Hayward and George.  Also it kind of puts in perspective I feel showing Isaiah Thomas isn't going to be worth a Max contract. Plus also showing us the value of Avery Bradley's as well as his contract and also Marcus Smart value.  This is also not including the Lakers pick that we might have next year in the money that they talk about period unless they're talking about that getting traded for Paul George.

To me this almost makes me want to see if there is a trade option for Al Horford and Isaiah Thomas.  For the simple reason if we want the two stars to be Gordon Hayward and Paul George, these two could really hurt us in the money situation period because I don't honestly see the Celtics paying that much in luxury tax. 

Or this just means our better course of action is just to stay put, make a small signing this offseason for another score and interior presents for rebounding and blocking. Then trying to go after a Gordon Haywood for max deal. I just found this article very interesting because it sheds some light about the salary cap and what's going to happen to us. Especially if we're going to try to pay Isaiah Thomas of Max deal. Figured I'd see what everybody else's opinion would be on it because it was an interesting read.

http://www.celticslife.com/2017/06/how-luxury-tax-may-affect-free-agency.html?m=1

If we dont get Horford we are probably the #6 seed and lose in the first round.

Do you think Hayward leaves the Jazz for that?

Not a chance.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 10:20:03 AM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Horford signing was a no-brainer
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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 10:21:19 AM »

Offline trickybilly

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Curious, OP, what makes you think we won't go into the luxury tax? We have been managing our payroll very carefully while we have been building - that's sensible for many reasons. But none moreso than avoiding repeater tax. That being said, there is no reason the think Wyc won't cough up cash if we are a piece away from truly contending.

Of course you could also argue that adding George and Hayward, and losing only Avery and Crowder makes us instant contenders for next year...
"Gimme the ball, gimme the ball". Freddy Quimby, 1994.

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 10:23:04 AM »

Offline Moranis

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This article gave me a lot to think about, and also showed why Al Horford contract was one of the worst we could have done in the long run. Yes, he did help us get to the Eastern Conference Finals, but did he hurt us building in the future. Especially with a chance like this summer with Hayward and George.  Also it kind of puts in perspective I feel showing Isaiah Thomas isn't going to be worth a Max contract. Plus also showing us the value of Avery Bradley's as well as his contract and also Marcus Smart value.  This is also not including the Lakers pick that we might have next year in the money that they talk about period unless they're talking about that getting traded for Paul George.

To me this almost makes me want to see if there is a trade option for Al Horford and Isaiah Thomas.  For the simple reason if we want the two stars to be Gordon Hayward and Paul George, these two could really hurt us in the money situation period because I don't honestly see the Celtics paying that much in luxury tax. 

Or this just means our better course of action is just to stay put, make a small signing this offseason for another score and interior presents for rebounding and blocking. Then trying to go after a Gordon Haywood for max deal. I just found this article very interesting because it sheds some light about the salary cap and what's going to happen to us. Especially if we're going to try to pay Isaiah Thomas of Max deal. Figured I'd see what everybody else's opinion would be on it because it was an interesting read.

http://www.celticslife.com/2017/06/how-luxury-tax-may-affect-free-agency.html?m=1

If we dont get Horford we are probably the #6 seed and lose in the first round.

Do you think Hayward leaves the Jazz for that?
He might if Boston has room for 2 max contracts and it is Hayward and Griffin coming to town without giving up a single asset or other player.  Or he might if with no Horford, Boston acquires George for future assets, immediately renegotiates and extends and then signs Hayward.  There would be room to do that if Horford's contract wasn't on the books.  Boston would then still have player assets to trade and upgrade the center position. 

Or maybe had Boston not signed Horford it would have been active at the trade deadline and gone for Butler then or went with a lesser player like Ibaka or Noel, since bringing any of those players in would have still allowed Boston to have room for a max contract. 

Horford was a bad signing once Durant didn't end up here because Horford is not a #1 player and Boston doesn't have a #1 player on the roster.  And last summer wasn't the drop dead date on using the cap space, like this summer is.  Boston should not have signed Horford to that contract.  I said it at the time and have been saying it ever since.  His contract just didn't make sense without Durant. 
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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2017, 10:53:10 AM »

Offline OldSchoolDude

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Sign PG13 and Hayward to Max deals, knowing there will not be enough money to pay IT.  When 2018 FA hits offer IT an insulting team friendly deal and watch him walk for big money. 

PG: ?
SG: ?
SF: Hayward
PF: PG13
 C: Horford

A front court of Hayward, PG13, and Horford really only needs a complementary back court we don't need a super star back curt, just hold it down on D, move the ball and score when needed.

So take your pick any combo works well with a front court of Hayward, PG13, and Horford.

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PG: Doncic
SG: Tatum
SF: Hayward
PF: PG13
 C: Horford


Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2017, 11:11:13 AM »

Offline LilRip

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Got to love how I give one of many opinion on the article in the first sentence and that's all that's focused on.  Yes, without Horford a lot might not happen.  But was he worth the max deal at his age, I don't think so.  Yes, that's the market value I get it but that's not what I'm looking at.

Yes, we'd still be in the market for Hayward he's been tied to us since Stevens.  We'd also be in a running for free agents no matter because we'd have the most money with a young team. 

But what I think most people didn't see.  This article shows by doing this we are going having into luxury tax next year a lot  by doing these deals and won't be able to do future moves in free agency.  Not saying I hate this if this happens but I'm wanting to win titles.  I don't see Thomas winning us a title, not saying he's a bad player.  But would you give a soon to be 30 year old when contract begins, coming off a hip injury which has ended careers?

I can see how people would hesitate on giving IT the max, especially when he's coming off injury. But the Horford thing is off base. Imagine a scenario where Horford doesn't come, we have the 7th seed and get destroyed by the Wiz (who have Horford). We could have a ton of cap space but I don't see why Hayward would want to go here when Utah is coming off 50 wins. Furthermore, I don't see how IT could have this stellar of a season without Horford's support.

The Lakers have a young team and they have cap space. They don't have IT but IT and another all star isn't winning you a championship. Honestly, I don't think FA's really consider the BKN picks much, given that these guys will blossom when they're on the downside of their careers. It's only fans who think the BKN picks make Boston an attractive destination for top flight FA's entering or in their prime.

- LilRip

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2017, 11:22:15 AM »

Offline Rakulp

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Got to love how I give one of many opinion on the article in the first sentence and that's all that's focused on.  Yes, without Horford a lot might not happen.  But was he worth the max deal at his age, I don't think so.  Yes, that's the market value I get it but that's not what I'm looking at.

Yes, we'd still be in the market for Hayward he's been tied to us since Stevens.  We'd also be in a running for free agents no matter because we'd have the most money with a young team. 

But what I think most people didn't see.  This article shows by doing this we are going having into luxury tax next year a lot  by doing these deals and won't be able to do future moves in free agency.  Not saying I hate this if this happens but I'm wanting to win titles.  I don't see Thomas winning us a title, not saying he's a bad player.  But would you give a soon to be 30 year old when contract begins, coming off a hip injury which has ended careers?

I can see how people would hesitate on giving IT the max, especially when he's coming off injury. But the Horford thing is off base. Imagine a scenario where Horford doesn't come, we have the 7th seed and get destroyed by the Wiz (who have Horford). We could have a ton of cap space but I don't see why Hayward would want to go here when Utah is coming off 50 wins. Furthermore, I don't see how IT could have this stellar of a season without Horford's support.

The Lakers have a young team and they have cap space. They don't have IT but IT and another all star isn't winning you a championship. Honestly, I don't think FA's really consider the BKN picks much, given that these guys will blossom when they're on the downside of their careers. It's only fans who think the BKN picks make Boston an attractive destination for top flight FA's entering or in their prime.

Added the bolded above because it makes the point of my comment.

When you try to examine a scenario of the positive and negative impact of signing Horford, you HAVE to take into account what his destination would have been, if not in Boston...and what impact that would have had on our year also.

Horford ALMOST got us Durant...and it's helping other FA's to possibly come to Boston...and he helped us make the East Finals.

Without him...as has been mentioned...our year would have been dramatically different, our offseason less eventful, and our future a little less brighter in all likelihood.

Thanks Al...I appreciate ya!

Rak

Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2017, 11:36:14 AM »

Online Donoghus

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Summer 2016

"Celtics can never sign a big time FA.  No big name ever wants to come to Boston."

Summer 2017

"Celtics just made the conference finals for the first time post Big Three era but Horford's contract is killing us!!!"


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Re: Great article shows a lot to think about.
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2017, 11:40:53 AM »

Offline ederson

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Summer 2016

"Celtics can never sign a big time FA.  No big name ever wants to come to Boston."

Summer 2017

"Celtics just made the conference finals for the first time post Big Three era but Horford's contract is killing us!!!"

Surprised ????
It's common knowledge that fans are bipolar  :D