Author Topic: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?  (Read 41045 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #180 on: June 27, 2017, 06:30:30 PM »

Offline keevsnick

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5515
  • Tommy Points: 549
Saw this idea on another board: Wouldn't a sign-and-trade for Hayward remove most of the situation's hairiness?

Not really. Lets assume you straight up used cap space to bring in George and resign him to an extension. Then the jazz sign Hayward to the max of 30 million. You would then need to send out like 24 million in salary to bring in Haywards deal. Crowder and Bradley make 15 million combined. That means you need to send out another nine million. But you've already cleared out your salary filler to open the space to extend George, so that nine million would need to come from Brown, Tatum, Thomas, Smart. At least two of those guys would be gone. Meaning you'd still need to gut the team.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #181 on: June 27, 2017, 06:35:50 PM »

Offline KGBirdBias

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1649
  • Tommy Points: 125
What kills me is people don't want to renounce players or trade players to get 2 FAs. Look guys like AB, Crowder, Zeller, Rozier, Amir, JJ, Young, two top picks are all replaceable parts. We have Zizic, Yabu, Nader, Semi all waiting to play and be given a chance...and they're cheap and probably better.

We've gone as far as we can with this group. If you're trying to win a chip, it takes being top heavy and then filling in. When we had the Big 3, we had no problem getting reserves. Yes, we have to go over the cap and into lux tax to be in the Finals.

It's worth the risk with all these assets. Ainge can't compete and select 7 #1 picks in the next 3 drafts. He drafted Tatum in the event PG bolts, he's covered. He has so many assets it's up to him what he wants to give up.

Stop whining about the 8th-15th man...if you want #18 you have to load up if Wyc is willing to pay the lux tax.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #182 on: June 27, 2017, 06:36:00 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1822
  • Tommy Points: 219
Saw this idea on another board: Wouldn't a sign-and-trade for Hayward remove most of the situation's hairiness?

Not really. Lets assume you straight up used cap space to bring in George and resign him to an extension. Then the jazz sign Hayward to the max of 30 million. You would then need to send out like 24 million in salary to bring in Haywards deal. Crowder and Bradley make 15 million combined. That means you need to send out another nine million. But you've already cleared out your salary filler to open the space to extend George, so that nine million would need to come from Brown, Tatum, Thomas, Smart. At least two of those guys would be gone. Meaning you'd still need to gut the team.

Why would we only use cap space to bring in George? If both transactions were trades then we would be able to take in 60 million and only send out 48 or so. Doesn't it work then?
"Young man, you have the question backwards." - Bill Russell

"My guess is that an aggregator of expert opinions would be close in terms of results to that of Danny." - Roy H.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #183 on: June 27, 2017, 06:36:43 PM »

Offline Evantime34

  • NCE
  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11942
  • Tommy Points: 764
  • Eagerly Awaiting the Next Fantasy Draft
Saw this idea on another board: Wouldn't a sign-and-trade for Hayward remove most of the situation's hairiness?
Absolutely. It would really help the C's to fill out their roster. The only issue is that they wouldn't be able to renegotiate and extend George if they got Hayward with a sign and trade instead of signing him to cap space.

It's the difference between creating cap space vs staying over the cap. If we stay over the cap, we could use Olynyk, Amir or Jerebko to match salaries where we would have to renounce those guys to get to max cap space.

I think if Hayward/George happens it will be without an extension for George, since it would cost him a lot of money to extend unless it was a renegotiate and extend.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #184 on: June 27, 2017, 06:51:47 PM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
We're gonna have a lot of wings if this happens. I'm assuming Jaylen and Jayson are off the table.

If it happens, and if getting George doesn't involve giving up Bradley or Smart, they'll be set everywhere except center.


They've got Zizic and Horford. Their small ball system is wing heavy. I think they'll have to give up Bradley and probably Crowder.

Horford's not a true center (he's a 4), and Zizic is a non-entity.  This team's future center, hopefully, is coming via the next Brooklyn pick.

Disagree. He is most productive as center.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #185 on: June 27, 2017, 06:53:02 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

  • NCE
  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1822
  • Tommy Points: 219
Saw this idea on another board: Wouldn't a sign-and-trade for Hayward remove most of the situation's hairiness?
Absolutely. It would really help the C's to fill out their roster. The only issue is that they wouldn't be able to renegotiate and extend George if they got Hayward with a sign and trade instead of signing him to cap space.

It's the difference between creating cap space vs staying over the cap. If we stay over the cap, we could use Olynyk, Amir or Jerebko to match salaries where we would have to renounce those guys to get to max cap space.

I think if Hayward/George happens it will be without an extension for George, since it would cost him a lot of money to extend unless it was a renegotiate and extend.

Thanks for the explanation.

So, looks like I'm going to prefer not renegotiating.
"Young man, you have the question backwards." - Bill Russell

"My guess is that an aggregator of expert opinions would be close in terms of results to that of Danny." - Roy H.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #186 on: June 27, 2017, 06:54:29 PM »

Offline moiso

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7640
  • Tommy Points: 441
THE PAUL GEORGE TRADE IS DONE JUST WAITING ON HAYWARD

awaiting haywards commitment to Celtics:

The Boston Celtics are seeking a commitment from Gordon Hayward before they can finalize a trade for Paul George.


"The Celtics will need to maneuver their roster and unload salaries but they have contingencies in place.

If Boston can't secure a deal with Hayward, they could instead sign Blake Griffin and then trade for George."

Remember, Larry is a Celtic. McHale is a Celtic. Ainge is a Celtic. Need I say more?

And that works both ways. Bird will get the best deal from Ainge.

Bird stepped down from the Pacers weeks ago.

Bird is still a part of the Pacers organization. He was at the Combine for them.

You don't think he is involved in negotiations with Ainge?  :laugh:
Do you think he'd do Ainge a favor?  Has he ever done the Celtics a favor in all his Pacers years?  I don't think so.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #187 on: June 27, 2017, 06:56:52 PM »

Offline mctyson

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5087
  • Tommy Points: 372
Man, there is way too much talk of extending George's contract. It's really simple. Assuming we use all our cap space to sign Hayward, George isn't going to surrender money by agreeing to an extension with the Pacers and then a trade to Boston. And we're not going to give away Al Horford so we can make more cap room to give George an extension.

What can happen is that George quietly says he'll re-sign with us, using the Bird rights, or he at  least says that he's willing to consider re-signing with us, and Danny rolls the dice.

I think this is the likely scenario, if this happens at all.  I can't see Danny going completely all in with George by giving up more to extend him now.  Why not try it out one year and see what happens?

If it is something like Crowder + Zeller + 2018 LA pick + 2019 Memphis/2019 Boston, I am all for it.  Crowder will be redundant with George and Hayward, plus take away minutes from Jaylen and Jayson.

It would be Crowder and Bradley, since Zeller has to go to open max space for Hayward.

I asked this in the other thread...why does Hayward have to be signed prior to the George trade?  Maybe this can be explained further, but can't the Celtics trade for George right now?

Its all about how trades work. In a trade you can bring back 125% + 100K in salary, meaning the combines 15 million of Crowder/Bradley can bring back the 19.5 million of Paul George without additional salary. That means that using cap space first and the going over the cap in a trade is a better use of cap space. You can do the trade first, but then you are "losing" that extra 4.5 million in cap space meaning you would have to give up an additional player like smart.

I understand the salary matching aspect which is why I bring up Zeller.  He makes as much as Avery and I would assume that the Celtics would do everything in their power to find some way to keep AB here if the goal is to compete now.  Sending him away really makes little sense, as you are just moderately upgrading at the 2 spot with Hayward.

Okay, lets say you use Zeller as part of the package to get George. His Salary is big enough you could do it. Lets say its Crowder+Zeller. That's about 14.5 million going out, George is like 19 coming in. So that trade loses  4.5 million in cap space. Also our cap space projects include CUTTING zeller, so you lose 8 million more in cap space. That means your projected 28.5 million is down to 16. Meaning now you have to trade Bradley anyway to get Hayward and in addition have to give up Smart, Brown, Tatum or more.

Is there a way to make-up the 4.5M difference in the trade without including Smart, Brown, or Tatum?  Like Rozier + another contract?

I say this because I am not a huge fan of dumping Bradley just to sign Hayward, so we can get George.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #188 on: June 27, 2017, 06:57:10 PM »

Offline footey

  • Reggie Lewis
  • ***************
  • Posts: 15965
  • Tommy Points: 1833
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #189 on: June 27, 2017, 06:59:54 PM »

Offline mctyson

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5087
  • Tommy Points: 372
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

It doesn't rebound.  I don't think anything we do solves that problem though.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #190 on: June 27, 2017, 07:04:07 PM »

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 58537
  • Tommy Points: -25636
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

It doesn't rebound.  I don't think anything we do solves that problem though.

If that lineup played to its potential, rebounds wouldn't matter that much.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #191 on: June 27, 2017, 07:06:21 PM »

Offline JBcat

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3642
  • Tommy Points: 512
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

I mentioned earlier extend the trade for George to include a cheap contract like Seraphin for big man depth, and possibly sign Zach Randolph with the room exception (if he is willing to sign for that amount).  Even somone like Bogut you might be able to get for cheap coming off an injury.

George can still be moved to PF in small ball lineups (our death lineups haha) but just not full time.  I don't think he is keen on playing PF a ton.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #192 on: June 27, 2017, 07:06:42 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4098
  • Tommy Points: 419
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

It doesn't rebound.  I don't think anything we do solves that problem though.

Yeah it wouldn't need to.  Steph Curry was like the leading rebounder for the chanps this year.  That team would win a lot of games and then could hopefully out rebound the GSW.  I don't care if OKC or the Pistons outrebound us, they're not actual thteats to that team.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #193 on: June 27, 2017, 07:08:17 PM »

Offline keevsnick

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5515
  • Tommy Points: 549
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

It doesn't rebound.  I don't think anything we do solves that problem though.

If that lineup played to its potential, rebounds wouldn't matter that much.

That lineup has a guy who had literally one of the best offensive seasons ever surrounded by four guys who are average to better shooters (assuming brown shows even modest improvement) and multiple guys who can make their own shot. Instead of Isaiah driving and Dishing to Bradley, Crowder and Smart he would be dishing to Brown, Heyward and George. Rebounding doesn't matter a lot if we score 130 every night.

Re: WOJ BOMB, paul george and hayward!!!?
« Reply #194 on: June 27, 2017, 07:14:03 PM »

Offline byennie

  • Webmaster
  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2572
  • Tommy Points: 3033
How does the following lineup

IT
BROWN
GEORGE
HAYWARD
HORFORD

rebound? Still a problem IMO. May have to move Hayward to guard, move Brown to bench and bring in a stud rebounder on league minimum.

It doesn't rebound.  I don't think anything we do solves that problem though.

If that lineup played to its potential, rebounds wouldn't matter that much.

This. It doesn't hurt to have a rebounder or two on the bench (Zizic? vet signing?), but those guys will rebound *enough* with all the other mismatches. Horford & George give you around 7/night and Hayward/Brown are good for 5 each. Yeah, they'll get beat on the offensive glass sometimes but this is the way the league is going. The champs had one guy average over 8 boards.