Author Topic: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs  (Read 6936 times)

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Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2017, 02:44:49 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Players have been doing this for years.  It is nothing new.  Wade is a bit different since he has 3 titles already, but for someone like Anthony a title will do a lot on how he is ultimately viewed, especially if he makes some big plays in the Finals and gets the Cavs past the Warriors. 

The modern player just can't win, as we judge them by titles, but then get upset at them when they try to put themselves in a better position to win a title.  It is quite simply a catch-22.

Surely you would admit this is a bit different than the kinds of players that have traditionally been bought out though right? Our buyouts over the year were Finley at 36, Cassel at 35, Troy Murphy, Shavlik Randolph, Ryan Hollins, Terrence Williams, Sasha Pavlovic, an old Stephon Marbury for his last 30 games in the league. Carmelo just turned 33 and averaged 22 points and 6 rebounds last year. He is a cut above the kinds of guys we have traditionally seen bought out and signed for the minimum right? Wade certainly fits the age profile  more at 35 and with just one or two years left. However, even he was averaging 18 points last year and was just below all-star level.

Marbury was probably the highest stats guy of any of the buyout players we got in the last 20 years and he was averaging 13 points on 41% shooting for a lousy knicks team. All the other guys weren't even in the same discussion (and to that point Marbury couldn't get more than a minimum offer after the season whereas at least half the league would pay these guys the mid-level or more.

Edit: Found a pretty recent article on this and how little impact the kinds of guys that were traditional bought out had the last 10 years. 
2009
Celtics sign Stephon Marbury
Cavaliers sign Joe Smith
Nuggets sign Jason Hart
Heat sign Luther Head
Suns sign Stromile Swift
Spurs sign Drew Gooden
2010
Blazers sign Travis Diener
Celtics sign Michael Finley
Bucks sign Jerry Stackhouse
Bobcats sign Larry Hughes
2011
Grizzlies sign Jason Williams
Knicks sign Jared Jeffries
Knicks sign Derrick Brown
Celtics sign Troy Murphy
Heat sign Mike Bibby
Bulls sign Rasual Butler
Celtics sign Sasha Pavlovic
Mavericks sign Corey Brewer
Warriors sign Al Thornton
Celtics sign Carlos Arroyo
Grizzlies sign Leon Powe
2012
Magic sign Ish Smith
Clippers sign Kenyon Martin (China)
Jazz sign DeMarre Carroll
Knicks sign J.R. Smith (China)
Spurs sign Patty Mills (China)
Nuggets sign Wilson Chandler (China)
Hornets sign Chris Johnson
Grizzlies sign Gilbert Arenas
Heat sign Ronny Turiaf
Thunder sign Derek Fisher
Celtics sign Ryan Hollins
Spurs sign Boris Diaw
2013
Heat sign Chris Andersen
Knicks sign Kenyon Martin
Thunder sign Derek Fisher
Celtics sign Terrence Williams
Hornets sign Lou Amundson
Celtics sign Shavlik Randolph (China/Puerto Rico)
Celtics sign D.J. White (China)
2014
Pacers sign Andrew Bynum
Pelicans sign Luke Babbitt (Russia)
Nets sign Jason Collins
Clippers sign Glen Davis
Grizzlies sign Beno Udrih
Wizards sign Drew Gooden
Clippers sign Danny Granger
Thunder sign Caron Butler
Bulls sign Jimmer Fredette
Knicks sign Shannon Brown
2015
Mavericks sign Amar’e Stoudemire
Cavaliers sign Kendrick Perkins
Heat sign Michael Beasley (China)
Timberwolves sign Justin Hamilton
76ers sign Glenn Robinson III
Pelicans sign Toney Douglas (China)
Nuggets sign Ian Clark

2016
Mavericks sign David Lee
Bucks sign Steve Novak
Nuggets sign JaKarr Sampson
Warriors sign Anderson Varejao
Wizards sign J.J. Hickson
Heat sign Joe Johnson
Hawks sign Kris Humphries
Raptors sign Jason Thompson
Grizzlies sign Ryan Hollins
Rockets sign Michael Beasley (China)
Thunder sign Nazr Mohammed
Pacers sign Ty Lawson
Spurs sign Andre Miller
Spurs sign Kevin Martin
Suns sign Chase Budinger
Wizards sign Marcus Thornton
Rockets sign Andrew Goudelock (China)
Clippers sign Jeff Ayres

I mean these guys are all at a MUCH different level than Anthony and Wade right now with perhaps 1 exception I am missing.
well when you limit it to being bought out you narrow the list, but lots and lots of free agents turn down way more money to go ring chasing.  Karl Malone was a 20/8 player making 19.5 million in Utah to signing with the Lakers for 1.5 million.  He was certainly old at the time, but he was still very effective.  Gary Payton 18/7/4 in Sea/Mil making over 12.5 million to signing for the MLE in the off season with those same Lakers chasing a ring (he would finally get his ring signing for the minimum in Miami after that).  Look at all the teams Shaq signed onto at below market value chasing that 5th ring.  A guy like David West is a more recent example.  He turned down way more money a lot to sign with the Warriors.

Players have been signing for way less than market value to chase a ring for years.  This isn't some new development. 
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Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
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Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2017, 02:48:49 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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id love to see this happen......

I d be surprized if Bronnie lets this miserable old  pair on his team.  ......too funny  ;D

Bron needs energy .....young blood ......not blood suckers

not guys who NEVER get back on defense , or play full time defense.

This signing would be funny to me.


Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2017, 03:04:22 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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id love to see this happen......

I d be surprized if Bronnie lets this miserable old  pair on his team.  ......too funny  ;D

Bron needs energy .....young blood ......not blood suckers

not guys who NEVER get back on defense , or play full time defense.

This signing would be funny to me.
Lebron is the worst GM. Remember when he forced the team to get 115 lb larry sanders? Lol

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2017, 03:13:07 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Players have been doing this for years.  It is nothing new.  Wade is a bit different since he has 3 titles already, but for someone like Anthony a title will do a lot on how he is ultimately viewed, especially if he makes some big plays in the Finals and gets the Cavs past the Warriors. 

The modern player just can't win, as we judge them by titles, but then get upset at them when they try to put themselves in a better position to win a title.  It is quite simply a catch-22.

Surely you would admit this is a bit different than the kinds of players that have traditionally been bought out though right? Our buyouts over the year were Finley at 36, Cassel at 35, Troy Murphy, Shavlik Randolph, Ryan Hollins, Terrence Williams, Sasha Pavlovic, an old Stephon Marbury for his last 30 games in the league. Carmelo just turned 33 and averaged 22 points and 6 rebounds last year. He is a cut above the kinds of guys we have traditionally seen bought out and signed for the minimum right? Wade certainly fits the age profile  more at 35 and with just one or two years left. However, even he was averaging 18 points last year and was just below all-star level.

Marbury was probably the highest stats guy of any of the buyout players we got in the last 20 years and he was averaging 13 points on 41% shooting for a lousy knicks team. All the other guys weren't even in the same discussion (and to that point Marbury couldn't get more than a minimum offer after the season whereas at least half the league would pay these guys the mid-level or more.

Edit: Found a pretty recent article on this and how little impact the kinds of guys that were traditional bought out had the last 10 years. 
2009
Celtics sign Stephon Marbury
Cavaliers sign Joe Smith
Nuggets sign Jason Hart
Heat sign Luther Head
Suns sign Stromile Swift
Spurs sign Drew Gooden
2010
Blazers sign Travis Diener
Celtics sign Michael Finley
Bucks sign Jerry Stackhouse
Bobcats sign Larry Hughes
2011
Grizzlies sign Jason Williams
Knicks sign Jared Jeffries
Knicks sign Derrick Brown
Celtics sign Troy Murphy
Heat sign Mike Bibby
Bulls sign Rasual Butler
Celtics sign Sasha Pavlovic
Mavericks sign Corey Brewer
Warriors sign Al Thornton
Celtics sign Carlos Arroyo
Grizzlies sign Leon Powe
2012
Magic sign Ish Smith
Clippers sign Kenyon Martin (China)
Jazz sign DeMarre Carroll
Knicks sign J.R. Smith (China)
Spurs sign Patty Mills (China)
Nuggets sign Wilson Chandler (China)
Hornets sign Chris Johnson
Grizzlies sign Gilbert Arenas
Heat sign Ronny Turiaf
Thunder sign Derek Fisher
Celtics sign Ryan Hollins
Spurs sign Boris Diaw
2013
Heat sign Chris Andersen
Knicks sign Kenyon Martin
Thunder sign Derek Fisher
Celtics sign Terrence Williams
Hornets sign Lou Amundson
Celtics sign Shavlik Randolph (China/Puerto Rico)
Celtics sign D.J. White (China)
2014
Pacers sign Andrew Bynum
Pelicans sign Luke Babbitt (Russia)
Nets sign Jason Collins
Clippers sign Glen Davis
Grizzlies sign Beno Udrih
Wizards sign Drew Gooden
Clippers sign Danny Granger
Thunder sign Caron Butler
Bulls sign Jimmer Fredette
Knicks sign Shannon Brown
2015
Mavericks sign Amar’e Stoudemire
Cavaliers sign Kendrick Perkins
Heat sign Michael Beasley (China)
Timberwolves sign Justin Hamilton
76ers sign Glenn Robinson III
Pelicans sign Toney Douglas (China)
Nuggets sign Ian Clark

2016
Mavericks sign David Lee
Bucks sign Steve Novak
Nuggets sign JaKarr Sampson
Warriors sign Anderson Varejao
Wizards sign J.J. Hickson
Heat sign Joe Johnson
Hawks sign Kris Humphries
Raptors sign Jason Thompson
Grizzlies sign Ryan Hollins
Rockets sign Michael Beasley (China)
Thunder sign Nazr Mohammed
Pacers sign Ty Lawson
Spurs sign Andre Miller
Spurs sign Kevin Martin
Suns sign Chase Budinger
Wizards sign Marcus Thornton
Rockets sign Andrew Goudelock (China)
Clippers sign Jeff Ayres

I mean these guys are all at a MUCH different level than Anthony and Wade right now with perhaps 1 exception I am missing.
well when you limit it to being bought out you narrow the list, but lots and lots of free agents turn down way more money to go ring chasing.  Karl Malone was a 20/8 player making 19.5 million in Utah to signing with the Lakers for 1.5 million.  He was certainly old at the time, but he was still very effective.  Gary Payton 18/7/4 in Sea/Mil making over 12.5 million to signing for the MLE in the off season with those same Lakers chasing a ring (he would finally get his ring signing for the minimum in Miami after that).  Look at all the teams Shaq signed onto at below market value chasing that 5th ring.  A guy like David West is a more recent example.  He turned down way more money a lot to sign with the Warriors.

Players have been signing for way less than market value to chase a ring for years.  This isn't some new development.

Yea but it is a pretty big distinction between signing in free agency versus being bought out. In a buyout an old team is still paying that guy to chase a championship with a new team. If this happens and having two other teams paying 2 guys 50 million dollars to chase a ring with their friend in Cleveland is way different from all the people you mentioned. Also how much did Shaq really play below market? Like Shaq got 3 million from us when he was old and broken down. Maybe he would have got 2 or 3 million more somewhere else, but it wasn't like he would get signed for 15 million somewhere he was not really capable of playing more than 18-20 minutes a game.

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2017, 03:40:12 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Shaq signed in Boston for the vet minimum which was something like 1.3 million at the time.  He easily could have gotten at least the MLE from somewhere. 

Michael Finley was waived by the Mavericks using the amnesty provision in 2005.  He had 3 years left on his contract.  He played those 3 seasons for the Spurs.  At the time Finley was 31 and made 14.6 million from the Mavs his last year there.  The Mavs paid him 15.9, 16.1, and 18.6 million the 3 seasons he was on the Spurs who paid him under 9 million for those 3 seasons combined.

Need more amnesty players, how about Chauncey Billups?  Knicks used the amnesty on him and then he went to the Clippers.  Or Baron Davis, amnestied by the Cavs (in the years in between James) and signed with the Knicks for the minimum (though the Knicks were obviously not a real contender).  Elton Brand amnestied by the Sixers and signs in Dallas for the LLE (a bit above the minimum).  I'm sure there are others.

Then you have the stretch provision, say hello Josh Smith (Detroit to LAC), Deron Williams (Brooklyn to Dallas), and others. 

there are plenty of other examples.  This isn't some new thing, no matter how hard you want it to be. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2017, 03:52:12 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Shaq signed in Boston for the vet minimum which was something like 1.3 million at the time.  He easily could have gotten at least the MLE from somewhere. 

Michael Finley was waived by the Mavericks using the amnesty provision in 2005.  He had 3 years left on his contract.  He played those 3 seasons for the Spurs.  At the time Finley was 31 and made 14.6 million from the Mavs his last year there.  The Mavs paid him 15.9, 16.1, and 18.6 million the 3 seasons he was on the Spurs who paid him under 9 million for those 3 seasons combined.

Need more amnesty players, how about Chauncey Billups?  Knicks used the amnesty on him and then he went to the Clippers.  Or Baron Davis, amnestied by the Cavs (in the years in between James) and signed with the Knicks for the minimum (though the Knicks were obviously not a real contender).  Elton Brand amnestied by the Sixers and signs in Dallas for the LLE (a bit above the minimum).  I'm sure there are others.

Then you have the stretch provision, say hello Josh Smith (Detroit to LAC), Deron Williams (Brooklyn to Dallas), and others. 

there are plenty of other examples.  This isn't some new thing, no matter how hard you want it to be.

Lets put out the stats for your "examples"

Carmelo Anthony 22 points per game 6 rebounds last year 2017 all star

Baron Davis averaged 13 points his stint with the Cavs and went on to average 6 points his one year with the Knicks. He was then out of the league. You expect Carmelo to average 6 points and be out of the league if he signs with the Cavs?

Elton Brand averaged 11 and 7 (obviously not all star calibar) and went on to average 7 points and 6 rebounds for the mavs before finishing his career with a few seasons as a low end bench guy.

Josh Smith was averaging 13 points a game and had serious character/personality issues before signing with Houston where he had a nice run averaging 12 points, but then made his way out of the league by age 30.

Deron Williams was averaging 13 points on 37% shooting before he was bought out by Brooklyn and was better served as a bench player after all his injuries

 Seems like you are the one pretending these are all the same thing.


Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2017, 03:53:25 PM »

Offline the TRUTH

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id love to see this happen......

I d be surprized if Bronnie lets this miserable old  pair on his team.  ......too funny  ;D

Bron needs energy .....young blood ......not blood suckers

not guys who NEVER get back on defense , or play full time defense.

This signing would be funny to me.

If he can just somehow get Steph Curry, Durant, Westbrook and Anthony Davis to come to Cleveland, then he might have enough weapons to win it all. Otherwise it's unfair to expect anything out of him without such a dominant supporting cast (I hope it's obvious that this comment is dripping in sarcasm and related to a recent post of yours in another thread).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 03:59:22 PM by the TRUTH »

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2017, 04:10:38 PM »

Online liam

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Anthony and Wade make Love look like Bill Russell on Defense. The Cars need defenders. LeBron can guard everyone.

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2017, 06:16:51 PM »

Offline wiley

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Wade needed to take out Curry....push from behind, body block into 5th row, or
a throw down to dislocate something...

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2017, 06:36:00 PM »

Offline More Banners

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The Cavs need a better coach before they bother with better players.

And as for defense, when your strategy thinks a wide open Durant dunk is a worse shot than a 30ft 3, and pulling up early in the clock for 35 footers and making them is common, all the defenders won't matter when there are 4 opposing players on the floor making those at once. There's no defense for a floor that spread out.

The Cavs need to move the ball and the players. Dump their overpaid nonsbooters. Quit the ISO-crap.

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2017, 06:48:04 PM »

Online liam

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Wade needed to take out Curry....push from behind, body block into 5th row, or
a throw down to dislocate something...

Wade is quite the goon!

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2017, 06:48:43 PM »

Offline GreenEnvy

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I believe there is a distinct difference between a buyout and choosing to sign for less than you can.

Ray Allen was well within his rights to go to Miami ring-chasing. We as fans were all upset, but could you imagine if he was still under contract and forced a buyout to go to Miami?

It's really a case of having your cake and eating it too. So you sign with a team, usually for a ludicrous offer (you rarely seen forced buyouts for good deals), then want to still get paid to leave for a better team?

It's one thing to call shots when you're a free agent, if you want less money or to play for a certain team, more power to you. But this whole "I don't want to play here anymore, I want to play there" is rubbing me the wrong way. PG13 did it publicly to Indy. Josh Jackson did it to us. Wade and Melo are apparently doing it to their teams.
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Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2017, 07:09:54 PM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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He would be a great mentor to Tatum even if it;s only for 1 season (he signs a cheap 1 year deal).

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2017, 07:10:58 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I believe there is a distinct difference between a buyout and choosing to sign for less than you can.

Ray Allen was well within his rights to go to Miami ring-chasing. We as fans were all upset, but could you imagine if he was still under contract and forced a buyout to go to Miami?

It's really a case of having your cake and eating it too. So you sign with a team, usually for a ludicrous offer (you rarely seen forced buyouts for good deals), then want to still get paid to leave for a better team?

It's one thing to call shots when you're a free agent, if you want less money or to play for a certain team, more power to you. But this whole "I don't want to play here anymore, I want to play there" is rubbing me the wrong way. PG13 did it publicly to Indy. Josh Jackson did it to us. Wade and Melo are apparently doing it to their teams.

You just saved me a few minutes in writing a very similar post - TP.

If players want so badly to leave to play for a contender, they should give up all of their money and go sign with said team for whatever that team will pay them. Wade picking up his option and then wanting out is preposterous. Melo wanting to be bought out with two years left on his contract (one year being a player option - how will that work out?) when he won't even waive his no trade clause may be even worse.

Re: Per windhorst: Anthony and Wade want to sign with cavs
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2017, 07:16:55 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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He would be a great mentor to Tatum even if it;s only for 1 season (he signs a cheap 1 year deal).

No, he wouldn't.  Worst possible role model.