Author Topic: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford  (Read 5210 times)

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Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2017, 10:01:56 AM »

Offline Nef-Oracle

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 10:02:19 AM »

Offline hodgy03038

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Let me ask a question about salaries and salary matching for trades, etc. Free agents can be signed anytime if they are not already with a team correct? I mean guys like Sully or this German kid, etc. If that is true can they sign a Sully (or whoever) for say 9 mill (one year) only to include him in a trade?

No, since we are signing Hayward in this case, he would already take up all of our salary space. This includes letting KO, Zeller, Young, JJ, and Mickey go.

We could sign somebody using the room exception, but that player couldn't be included in a trade this summer.

So you can't at any point go over salary cap without being penalized even if you go back under the cap via trades?

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2017, 10:06:14 AM »

Offline jambr380

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2017, 10:08:18 AM »

Offline Nef-Oracle

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Let me ask a question about salaries and salary matching for trades, etc. Free agents can be signed anytime if they are not already with a team correct? I mean guys like Sully or this German kid, etc. If that is true can they sign a Sully (or whoever) for say 9 mill (one year) only to include him in a trade?

Nope. Would have to wait till January to trade any player we sign, except for rookies (1 month).

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2017, 10:09:24 AM »

Offline Diggles

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Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2017, 10:09:38 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Let me ask a question about salaries and salary matching for trades, etc. Free agents can be signed anytime if they are not already with a team correct? I mean guys like Sully or this German kid, etc. If that is true can they sign a Sully (or whoever) for say 9 mill (one year) only to include him in a trade?

No, since we are signing Hayward in this case, he would already take up all of our salary space. This includes letting KO, Zeller, Young, JJ, and Mickey go.

We could sign somebody using the room exception, but that player couldn't be included in a trade this summer.

So you can't at any point go over salary cap without being penalized even if you go back under the cap via trades?

Signing Hayward brings us to (and unfortunately slightly over) the brink. In trying to 'match' salaries, all of those players I mentioned would need to be included in the trade, in which case we are then well over the cap. Using a player with the room exception would increase that even more.

If you want to go back under the salary cap, then it would require something much more major, like moving Horford...in which case you wouldn't need to match salaries at all.

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2017, 10:13:21 AM »

Offline Nef-Oracle

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Renounce to sign Hayward or make the trade?

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2017, 10:17:29 AM »

Offline jambr380

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Renounce to sign Hayward or make the trade?

To sign Hayward. A Melo/Porzingis trade would have to come later since we are barely able to match as it is. If/when we sign Hayward, our depth chart will have gotten a lot younger. That is why it will be important to use the exception, vet min contracts wisely.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 10:57:17 AM by jambr380 »

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2017, 10:21:47 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Just find a third team to take Melo and give them a 1st rounder if you have to.   

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2017, 10:26:46 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Just find a third team to take Melo and give them a 1st rounder if you have to.

One has to think this would have already been done by now if it were a possibility. Plus, Melo needs to waive his no-trade clause, but if he genuinely likes the city of NY and the Knicks fans/franchise (minus Phil), why do so unless you are going to a great situation? I don't know many 'great situations' out there that have $30M in cap room and the desire to take on Melo.

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2017, 10:27:02 AM »

Offline Nef-Oracle

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Renounce to sign Hayward or make the trade?

To sign Hayward. A Melo/Porzingis trade would have to come later since we are barely able to match as it is. If/when we sign Hayward, our depth chart will have gotten a lot younger. That is why it will be important to use the room exception, vet min contracts wisely.

Salary for next year with Zeller and co & Olynyk qualifying offer is $72 mill.  If we don't extend him it dips at 68, salary cap is 99 mill and Gordon Max is 30 mill. Can make the trade but won't be able to sign the rook and Zizic unless Hayward takes a pay cut. How that trade kicker work?

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2017, 10:32:07 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Just find a third team to take Melo and give them a 1st rounder if you have to.

One has to think this would have already been done by now if it were a possibility. Plus, Melo needs to waive his no-trade clause, but if he genuinely likes the city of NY and the Knicks fans/franchise (minus Phil), why do so unless you are going to a great situation? I don't know many 'great situations' out there that have $30M in cap room and the desire to take on Melo.


True.   

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2017, 10:38:14 AM »

Offline jambr380

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Renounce to sign Hayward or make the trade?

To sign Hayward. A Melo/Porzingis trade would have to come later since we are barely able to match as it is. If/when we sign Hayward, our depth chart will have gotten a lot younger. That is why it will be important to use the room exception, vet min contracts wisely.

Salary for next year with Zeller and co & Olynyk qualifying offer is $72 mill.  If we don't extend him it dips at 68, salary cap is 99 mill and Gordon Max is 30 mill. Can make the trade but won't be able to sign the rook and Zizic unless Hayward takes a pay cut. How that trade kicker work?

I think Zizic is with our team next year under any circumstance (as well, as Tatum, of course). It would certainly be delightful if Hayward would come even at a minimal discount, but we can't count on that.

Melo's salary next year is $26.24M and the total trade kicker is $8.1M, but it can be spread out over two seasons if Melo agrees in writing to become a free agent in 2019.

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2017, 10:51:16 AM »

Offline Nef-Oracle

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Renounce to sign Hayward or make the trade?

To sign Hayward. A Melo/Porzingis trade would have to come later since we are barely able to match as it is. If/when we sign Hayward, our depth chart will have gotten a lot younger. That is why it will be important to use the room exception, vet min contracts wisely.

Salary for next year with Zeller and co & Olynyk qualifying offer is $72 mill.  If we don't extend him it dips at 68, salary cap is 99 mill and Gordon Max is 30 mill. Can make the trade but won't be able to sign the rook and Zizic unless Hayward takes a pay cut. How that trade kicker work?

I think Zizic is with our team next year under any circumstance (as well, as Tatum, of course). It would certainly be delightful if Hayward would come even at a minimal discount, but we can't count on that.

Melo's salary next year is $26.24M and the total trade kicker is $8.1M, but it can be spread out over two seasons if Melo agrees in writing to become a free agent in 2019.

Okay thanks for explaining. Is there a possibility to create a small TPE say by sending them Crowder first for an heavily protected second round pick then absorb Zingis salary with the TPE?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 11:00:18 AM by Nef-Oracle »

Re: Isaiah-Hayward-Melo-Porzingis-Horford
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2017, 11:00:10 AM »

Offline BitterJim

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The money on this deal just doesn't work. First thing first you'd need to sign Hayward (creating space by declining all nonguaranteed deals and moving a salary that is as high as Smart's or higher - due to the later trade needing tons of salary, Smart is the best choice for this). Then you need to come up with salary to match Melo+Porzingis in a deal. Given that they make ~$30 million combined, you're looking at ~$24 million on outgoing salary. AB+Crowder gets you to $15.6 million. We would still need to add another $8.4 million. The only way to do that is either including Horford (in which case you can take AB/Crowder out of the deal), or including 2 of IT/Brown/Tatum (in addition to AB+Crowder)

So while it's technically possible, the only way to do this deal is to way overpay for Porzingis and absolutely gut our team. So, no, taking on Melo would not make Porzingis cheaper to acquire (unless we don't sign a FA and can absorb Melo into cap space)

Porzingis and Melo combined makes a little less than 29$ mill. Crowder and Bradley makes 15$, plus Smart $4 mill and Zeller $8 mill that makes 27$. Add in Demetrius and Mickey that's make $29. That's a match.

That's not how it works. Zeller and Mickey would need to be renounced and you are leaving off Carmelo's trade kicker which I mentioned in my post on the 1st page. You only need to match salaries to 125%, though, so not all hope is lost...but it is mostly lost.

Renounce to sign Hayward or make the trade?

To sign Hayward. A Melo/Porzingis trade would have to come later since we are barely able to match as it is. If/when we sign Hayward, our depth chart will have gotten a lot younger. That is why it will be important to use the room exception, vet min contracts wisely.

Salary for next year with Zeller and co & Olynyk qualifying offer is $72 mill.  If we don't extend him it dips at 68, salary cap is 99 mill and Gordon Max is 30 mill. Can make the trade but won't be able to sign the rook and Zizic unless Hayward takes a pay cut. How that trade kicker work?

No, that's incorrect. Taking the raw numbers from basketball reference ignores a lot of the realities of the NBA cap, like glossing over the 1st round and low roster spot cap holds.

With Zeller+KO's qualifying offer and first round pick cap holds (I'm not including cap holds for Amir+Jerebko+Young+Green, with them we would be well over the cap), we're at ~$89 million.  After letting the non-guaranteed contracts go and renouncing Olynyk's rights, we're at ~$27 million in cap space (~$27.5 if we trade Demetrius Jackson for no salary).  To get to the point of having the full 30% max, we would need to either: Trade Rozier for no salary and convince Yabusele to stay overseas OR trade Smart for ~$2.3 million or less in salary coming back (a larger salary could be used, but we need large salaries for the Melo+Porzingis trade)

After signing Hayward, we would be left with a roster of IT, AB, Horford, Jae, Brown, Rozier, Jayson Tatum, Yabusele, and Zizic (note: you can swap out Yabusele and Rozier and plug in Smart instead), and would put our salary at ~$97 million.  At that point, we would need to match salaries for the Zinger+Melo trade.  Melo will make $34 million next season when you factor in the trade kicker, so the combined incoming salary would be ~$38.8 million, meaning that we would need to send out a minimum of ~$31 million.  The only way to do that without sending out Horford is by including AB+Crowder+Brown+Tatum+IT.  If Smart was kept, the outgoing players could instead be AB+Crowder+Brown+Tatum+Smart+Zizic.

So, no, it's not realistically possible (and at the very least, taking on Carmelo does not make the deal cheaper for us).
I'm bitter.