Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward

[saltlover]

Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Question: Does this s and t allow Hayward to get his extra year? Is that the strategy? Otherwise, this is a gift to Utah when we could trade these players individually for valuable future picks, especially Brown, Smart and Crowder to teams who have or can create cap room. We're not going to have future cap space so we need guys who work cheap for a bench. The Brown loss really might hurt.

It allows the Celtics to get both George and Hayward.  Utah gets a killing because it's the only way the Celtics can get (and max) both without trading one of IT and Horford.

[BitterJim]

Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Question: Does this s and t allow Hayward to get his extra year? Is that the strategy? Otherwise, this is a gift to Utah when we could trade these players individually for valuable future picks, especially Brown, Smart and Crowder to teams who have or can create cap room. We're not going to have future cap space so we need guys who work cheap for a bench. The Brown loss really might hurt.

No. Sign and trade contracts are limited in the same way as just outright signing a contract with a team that doesn't hold your bird rights (so, 4 years and 5% raises).

As a result of the deal, we would also be hard capped at the tax apron (~$120 million) this season

[JBcat]

Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Question: Does this s and t allow Hayward to get his extra year? Is that the strategy? Otherwise, this is a gift to Utah when we could trade these players individually for valuable future picks, especially Brown, Smart and Crowder to teams who have or can create cap room. We're not going to have future cap space so we need guys who work cheap for a bench. The Brown loss really might hurt.

It allows the Celtics to get both George and Hayward.  Utah gets a killing because it's the only way the Celtics can get (and max) both without trading one of IT and Horford.

I honestly think it's too much to go that route in trying to trade and extend George and a S&T with Hayward coming here just so George can get his extra money. 

I don't believe the Lakers have the assets to pull off a S&T extension for George so who are we really competing against trying to pull that off? 

I may have the opposite viewpoint, but I would say to the Pacers look we just don't have the capability for a S&T extension, but we are willing to pay the best possible rental price.  The Lakers set the market with a crappy offer of Randle and 2 end of first round draft picks.  The Spurs were possibly interested in trading a dinosaur big man player exiting his prime.   I'm not sure who else we would be competing against willing to gamble on a rental player.  I would offer Bradley and Crowder with lower level draft picks at best.  Bradley is in the same boat as George as a potential rental, but they could easily flip him for other assets if they choose as well as Crowder.  Both Crowder and Bradley were excellent starters on a team reaching ECF.   If the Pacers aren't satisfied with that as the main package with lower level picks I move on.  I would also explore a KO S&T trade package with picks for George as well. 

Just sign Hayward or Griffin outright.  I would not give the Jazz that hell of a package.

[BitterJim]

this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax.

the Pacers can't extend George and then trade him.  Boston has to acquire him first and then use cap space to renegotiate his contract and then extend him.

Extend and trades are rare (afaik, they've only been used with KG and Melo), but they are allowed. It just makes little to no sense in our situation since George won't agree to 3/75 when he can get way more, plus pick his team, this summer

[mctyson]

Talent trumps depth.

Is adding George and Hayward enough talent to beat GSW?  It is enough to beat Lebron.

If not that is a huge price to pay.

[Monkhouse]

Talent trumps depth.

Is adding George and Hayward enough talent to beat GSW?  It is enough to beat Lebron.

If not that is a huge price to pay.

And we would likely have like 3-4 draft picks, two top 3 picks, and plenty of assets still left over.... Getting Griffin or Hayward is absolutely ideal, because they don't cost anything except cap space. Going after PG13 over Butler makes more solid sense, because Butler would've cost more.

[Jack_Frost]

this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax.

the Pacers can't extend George and then trade him.  Boston has to acquire him first and then use cap space to renegotiate his contract and then extend him.

You have to let Zeller walk before you sign Hayward. The drop in the cap from $101 to $99 seems to really hurt. How about this?

1) Trade Smart for a future #1.

2) Sign Hayward.

3) Trade Crowder, Bradley, and Rozier if needed plus Lakers 2018 for George.

This is correct according to the article I just read. This is a great article on the Celtics salary situation i.e. bringing in both PG and Hayward

http://heathoops.com/2017/06/what-could-be-next-for-the-celtics-after-trading-their-no-1-pick/

Is heathoops analysis correct?
Hope so.. anyway very interesting link.
But I don't understand last part.
Are crowder, bradley and rozier salaries enough to match PG first year extension? I'm not sure

[Moranis]

Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Question: Does this s and t allow Hayward to get his extra year? Is that the strategy? Otherwise, this is a gift to Utah when we could trade these players individually for valuable future picks, especially Brown, Smart and Crowder to teams who have or can create cap room. We're not going to have future cap space so we need guys who work cheap for a bench. The Brown loss really might hurt.

It allows the Celtics to get both George and Hayward.  Utah gets a killing because it's the only way the Celtics can get (and max) both without trading one of IT and Horford.

I honestly think it's too much to go that route in trying to trade and extend George and a S&T with Hayward coming here just so George can get his extra money. 

I don't believe the Lakers have the assets to pull off a S&T extension for George so who are we really competing against trying to pull that off? 

I may have the opposite viewpoint, but I would say to the Pacers look we just don't have the capability for a S&T extension, but we are willing to pay the best possible rental price.  The Lakers set the market with a crappy offer of Randle and 2 end of first round draft picks.  The Spurs were possibly interested in trading a dinosaur big man player exiting his prime.   I'm not sure who else we would be competing against willing to gamble on a rental player.  I would offer Bradley and Crowder with lower level draft picks at best.  Bradley is in the same boat as George as a potential rental, but they could easily flip him for other assets if they choose as well as Crowder.  Both Crowder and Bradley were excellent starters on a team reaching ECF.   If the Pacers aren't satisfied with that as the main package with lower level picks I move on.  I would also explore a KO S&T trade package with picks for George as well. 

Just sign Hayward or Griffin outright.  I would not give the Jazz that hell of a package.

if you don't extend George then you only have him for 1 year so there is a real risk he leaves. This about getting the security

[Moranis]

Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

what if Boston acquired George using Zeller or Olynyk (obviously plus some high value future picks)? Would it still have enough cap room to extend George?  If the cap room disappears anyway no reason to have any left. If so does that allow Rozier to go out and keeping Smart?  What about Jackson, Mickey, etc. does Boston still need to waive them to have the room to extend George

[Phantom255x]

The more I am reading these kind of threads, the more I think it's just simpler to sign 1 of Hayward/Griffin, add a big using room exception or "moderate trade", and roll next season.

This George + Hayward plan seems so risky and complicated. VERY complicated 

[jambr380]

The more I am reading these kind of threads, the more I think it's just simpler to sign 1 of Hayward/Griffin, add a big using room exception or "moderate trade", and roll next season.

This George + Hayward plan seems so risky and complicated. VERY complicated 

The deal sl points out is just what would need to happen for an extension, not what is plausible. I would still be willing to sell off AB, Crowder, and the Memphis first for a year of PG and a chance to convince him to stay. If Indy doesn't want AB, we can deal divert him to another team for a first and they get Crowder, Mem first, additional first, and possibly Rozier. That is not half bad for a player they are definitely losing.

[JBcat]

Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Question: Does this s and t allow Hayward to get his extra year? Is that the strategy? Otherwise, this is a gift to Utah when we could trade these players individually for valuable future picks, especially Brown, Smart and Crowder to teams who have or can create cap room. We're not going to have future cap space so we need guys who work cheap for a bench. The Brown loss really might hurt.

It allows the Celtics to get both George and Hayward.  Utah gets a killing because it's the only way the Celtics can get (and max) both without trading one of IT and Horford.

I honestly think it's too much to go that route in trying to trade and extend George and a S&T with Hayward coming here just so George can get his extra money. 

I don't believe the Lakers have the assets to pull off a S&T extension for George so who are we really competing against trying to pull that off? 

I may have the opposite viewpoint, but I would say to the Pacers look we just don't have the capability for a S&T extension, but we are willing to pay the best possible rental price.  The Lakers set the market with a crappy offer of Randle and 2 end of first round draft picks.  The Spurs were possibly interested in trading a dinosaur big man player exiting his prime.   I'm not sure who else we would be competing against willing to gamble on a rental player.  I would offer Bradley and Crowder with lower level draft picks at best.  Bradley is in the same boat as George as a potential rental, but they could easily flip him for other assets if they choose as well as Crowder.  Both Crowder and Bradley were excellent starters on a team reaching ECF.   If the Pacers aren't satisfied with that as the main package with lower level picks I move on.  I would also explore a KO S&T trade package with picks for George as well. 

Just sign Hayward or Griffin outright.  I would not give the Jazz that hell of a package.

if you don't extend George then you only have him for 1 year so there is a real risk he leaves. This about getting the security

I'm willing to roll the dice on a simpler less expensive trade package that once he is here playing with Thomas, Hayward, Horford, and our young up and comers along with our fan base, coaching staff/management team he won't want to leave for a huge question mark that is the Lakers.

[droopdog7]

The Jazz are NOT going to sign and trade Hayward is that scenario.  They would just dare Hayward to leave for a SIGFICANTLY lower salary.  They know he wouldn't.

This situation if different than the James situation.  In that case, Miami had max space and James would have signed for it.  In the end, he got a little more money with the sign and trade and Cleveland got something, which is better than nothing.

PLUS, George isn't going to sign and extension right now when he can get much more after next year. 

[Moranis]

The Jazz are NOT going to sign and trade Hayward is that scenario.  They would just dare Hayward to leave for a SIGFICANTLY lower salary.  They know he wouldn't.

This situation if different than the James situation.  In that case, Miami had max space and James would have signed for it.  In the end, he got a little more money with the sign and trade and Cleveland got something, which is better than nothing.

PLUS, George isn't going to sign and extension right now when he can get much more after next year.

George would actually get less money if he didnt extend since he would get 10 million more this season and then 2 more years at the full max (with the raises so really more money). Only 2 years instead if 4 but then he coukd sign the 5 year max at the highest percentage sooner.

[Bobshot]

The more I am reading these kind of threads, the more I think it's just simpler to sign 1 of Hayward/Griffin, add a big using room exception or "moderate trade", and roll next season.

This George + Hayward plan seems so risky and complicated. VERY complicated 

It isn't really complicated. or doesn't have to be. All those convolutions are remote scenarios. They can get George in a simple deal with the Pacers, then sign Hayward as a FA. It's a question of the Pacers accepting Crowder and Bradley in a deal (which passes the ESPN trade machine), then signing Hayward to max. The key is dropping a bunch of salary of non core players.