Author Topic: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward  (Read 7250 times)

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Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« on: June 24, 2017, 09:55:04 AM »

Offline Moranis

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If Boston were to trade for George first say it is Bradley, Crowder, and maybe Rozier (plus whatever future assets). Then extended George.  After getting George extended then acquire Hayward by working out a sign and trade with Utah.  To do that what kind of salary would need to go to Utah and would Boston be able to use Olynyk to do that (either to Utah or a 3rd team). I think that might be able to work but don't know enough about the dollars and cap holds to know for sure.

Obviously this way requires other teams and players to do it and may cost some extra assets I'm just wondering if it would work.
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Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2017, 10:13:52 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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With the new salary figures just released, The Celtics need to trade Crowder and Bradley for George, and drop Zeller by 7/2 , plus D.Jackson and J. Mickey. That allows them to keep Smart, Rozier,IT, Horford, Brown from the core team plus the rookie Tatum. Olynyk and AJ are expired.

The wait is for Hayward to be signed after July 1. Then things may happen quickly.

Adding George and Hayward is a major shift of the core team, and so losing core players is a necessity. Ainge has to come to grips with that. The net result is an improvement.

Note that if George left after a year, Bradley will become a FA, too, and he can always re-sign with Boston. Or maybe another FA.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2017, 10:35:55 AM »

Offline jambr380

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I don't have the exact answer to your question, but TP for being creative in how we could possibly acquire and extend George and also get Hayward here. I hadn't thought of the Olynyk angle or that the only way to really 'extend' George without losing Smart/Brown/Tatum would be to get George  first and then Hayward.

I don't know why Utah would help us steal away their guy in Hayward, but maybe they have a desire to have AB and KO on their team and know that Hayward is gone, regardless. KO, of course, would also have to want to go to Utah - certainly not a given.

Not sure where this is going to take us, but this is certainly setting up to be a crazy offseason.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 10:39:41 AM »

Offline dreamgreen

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I'm glad this has been brought up cause I'm curious too.

What's our payroll going into Free Agency?

How much is the max contract we have to offer to Hayward?

or for Griffin?

After that who is on the roster?

If we than trade for PG13 how much salary do we have to match?

Is there anything creative Danny can do here with S&T's?

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2017, 10:40:38 AM »

Offline Moranis

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I don't have the exact answer to your question, but TP for being creative in how we could possibly acquire and extend George and also get Hayward here. I hadn't thought of the Olynyk angle or that the only way to really 'extend' George without losing Smart/Brown/Tatum would be to get George  first and then Hayward.

I don't know why Utah would help us steal away their guy in Hayward, but maybe they have a desire to have AB and KO on their team and know that Hayward is gone, regardless. KO, of course, would also have to want to go to Utah - certainly not a given.

Not sure where this is going to take us, but this is certainly setting up to be a crazy offseason.
If Utah knows he is leaving anyway, then getting a player or assets would make sense.  I mean Cleveland and Toronto both traded James and Bosh to Miami, so this kind of thing does happen, but it would cost Boston some extra assets (maybe just a couple of late 1st's, but something).  I just think acquiring George and then trading for Hayward is the only way the math allows for an extension on George.  I can't see any other way to do it, but I just don't know enough about the cap to know for sure if this is possible.

And for the record, I think there are plenty of ways to do this.  I mean if KO and Indy have a mutual interest, then you trade KO (plus future draft picks and whatever other salary you need to create the room for the extension) for George and then you have Crowder, Bradley, Smart, Brown, etc. available to trade to Utah for Hayward.  In these scenarios Boston may be able to even keep someone like Johnson, Jerebko, or Zeller as well.  Again I just don't know all the particulars to know if this could work this way.
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Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 10:44:53 AM »

Offline Erik

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this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax but we'll have 3 years of locked in big 4 with still developing assets.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 10:49:00 AM »

Offline rondohondo

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this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax.

I don't believe you can s+t players in combination with other players, only draft picks.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2017, 10:49:00 AM »

Offline Moranis

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this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax.
the Pacers can't extend George and then trade him.  Boston has to acquire him first and then use cap space to renegotiate his contract and then extend him. 
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Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2017, 11:11:07 AM »

Offline Irish Stew

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this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax.
the Pacers can't extend George and then trade him.  Boston has to acquire him first and then use cap space to renegotiate his contract and then extend him.

You have to let Zeller walk before you sign Hayward. The drop in the cap from $101 to $99 seems to really hurt. How about this?

1) Trade Smart for a future #1.

2) Sign Hayward.

3) Trade Crowder, Bradley, and Rozier if needed plus Lakers 2018 for George.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 11:16:46 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing. 

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2017, 11:38:44 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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this is how it works

1. Dump salary to sign Hayward. This is most likely Bradley through trade.
2. Sign Hayward to max.
3. Pacers extend George for I believe something like 25 mil per year for 3 years.
4. We trade crowder, smart and zeller (still short to match) so we will have to sign and trade someone that is a free agent that pacers want like olynik using bird rights to come up with the difference.

This will put us a bit over luxury tax this year. When we max IT next year we will be paying a ton of tax.
the Pacers can't extend George and then trade him.  Boston has to acquire him first and then use cap space to renegotiate his contract and then extend him.

You have to let Zeller walk before you sign Hayward. The drop in the cap from $101 to $99 seems to really hurt. How about this?

1) Trade Smart for a future #1.

2) Sign Hayward.

3) Trade Crowder, Bradley, and Rozier if needed plus Lakers 2018 for George.
This is correct according to the article I just read. This is a great article on the Celtics salary situation i.e. bringing in both PG and Hayward

http://heathoops.com/2017/06/what-could-be-next-for-the-celtics-after-trading-their-no-1-pick/
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2017, 11:49:42 AM »

Offline jambr380

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Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Way to rain on everybody's parade, sl  ;)

I think I would rather take my chances at re-signing George next off-season than giving up both Brown and Smart in the deal. We are supposed to be building for now and in the future; giving up 2/3 of our best young player assets seems counter-productive to that.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2017, 11:50:21 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing. 
gets a nice top 4 for the team but man there's nothing left.  seriously raises the question if it's really worth it.  have to admit, looking at this makes me think we're better off just signing Hayward and maybe moving a couple of pieces to get a decent front court player and continue to build that way with developing young talent supplanting AB and Crowder very shortly (if not traded)

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2017, 11:58:19 AM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing. 
gets a nice top 4 for the team but man there's nothing left.  seriously raises the question if it's really worth it.  have to admit, looking at this makes me think we're better off just signing Hayward and maybe moving a couple of pieces to get a decent front court player and continue to build that way with developing young talent supplanting AB and Crowder very shortly (if not traded)

Talent trumps depth.

I'd much rather have the core of star players and then fill out the rest of the roster with vets looking to latch on. You can also look to sign undervalued players who are younger and ready to blossom in the right environment. Just look at what Pat Riley has been doing with the Heat the last few seasons. Half of those guys are from the D-League.

Re: Cap expert question (saltover?) Re. George/Hayward
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2017, 12:08:52 PM »

Offline Irish Stew

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Neat idea.  It's still difficult, arguably just as difficult because you'd need to send Utah at least $23.7 million in outgoing salary.  What you'd want to do is just use cap room to acquire/extend George, sending as little in salary as you need.  So Rozier and future picks would be about enough if we let Olynyk walk.  Then use the cap room, because any excess cap room after extending George would just go to waste, since cap room doesn't count for matching salaries.

Now you have to get to $23.7 million, from Crowder, Smart, Bradley, and Smart.  Bradley+Crowder+Brown is only $20.5 million, so you'd have to add Smart as well.

Would Utah do Bradley, Crowder, Brown, and Smart for a S&T for Hayward? I'd have to think so.  The roster would look like this:

IT
George
Tatum
Hayward
Horford
Zizic
Room-level exception
2nd-rounders and minimum salary players.

So that's an elite core four, with two rookies who could hopefully provide quality production, but the roster falls off really quickly.  It wouldn't be completely unaffordable next year, however, so that's a good thing.

Question: Does this s and t allow Hayward to get his extra year? Is that the strategy? Otherwise, this is a gift to Utah when we could trade these players individually for valuable future picks, especially Brown, Smart and Crowder to teams who have or can create cap room. We're not going to have future cap space so we need guys who work cheap for a bench. The Brown loss really might hurt.