Author Topic: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)  (Read 18427 times)

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Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 09:32:32 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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I kind of wanted the Celtics to get the bargain basement price on George, which would mean he didn't verbally agree to any extension before the trade is actually consummated. Then we would spend the next year convincing him he'd be crazy to leave and eventually he'd just re-sign, maybe taking a little less because he knows Thomas is also up and we have a good thing going here.

He would cost a lot more in assets if an extension agreement was a deal prerequisite.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2017, 09:36:34 AM »

Offline saltlover

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There is no way this is true.  The Celtics would need to have the cap room to give George an extension after trading for him.  They can do that without Hayward, but cannot possibly do that after signing Hayward.

100% Fake.

I am not a cap master like you are, but if we match salaries and re-sign him at the end of the season we don't have enough room? Also, this guy is a Boston media guy, so I wouldn't classify it as fake, he's hearing it from somewhere, that's why he's reporting it. That doesn't make it true though.

We can't have a 3-year extension in place at the end of next year. That's illegal.  And that's not what he's saying.  "A 3-year extension in place" means he's going to be traded and given a new contract as part of the trade, (like what we did with KG 10 years ago.)

It's fake.  Either this dude is an idiot who passes along whatever he hears without evaluating it, or he made it up himself.  I'll lower my fake rating to 99%, because it's doable if we trade Horford, and we'll be charitable and say there's a 1% chance Horford gets traded to make this thing happen.  But only 1%.

Otherwise, you could literally trade Tatum, Brown, Smart, Crowder, and Bradley and still not have the cap room to do this.  That's how impossible it is.  It's not close but difficult.  It's simply not happening, because there is no way for it to happen in the CBA.

One more question to throw at you, and it's for the sake of discussion, not trying to prove you wrong. Are you saying that DA can't talk to an agent of a prospective player acquired through a trade if Indy gives them permission?

No, I'm saying that they can't have an agreement that next year George will sign a new contract with the Celtics, because that's circumnavigating the CBA.  Having an agreement in place would essentially mean the Celtics got a lot of extra cap room that way, since they need that cap room to sign him legally.  If it was discovered the Celtics had done so, the penalties would be severe.  George's contract would be voided, he'd be prohibited from re-signing with the Celtics, and the Celtics would have draft picks taken away, probably some very good ones.  It would cost Ainge his job.

It's not a remote possibility.  That's not how Danny Ainge operates.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2017, 09:43:32 AM »

Offline RLewis35

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There is no way this is true.  The Celtics would need to have the cap room to give George an extension after trading for him.  They can do that without Hayward, but cannot possibly do that after signing Hayward.

100% Fake.

I am not a cap master like you are, but if we match salaries and re-sign him at the end of the season we don't have enough room? Also, this guy is a Boston media guy, so I wouldn't classify it as fake, he's hearing it from somewhere, that's why he's reporting it. That doesn't make it true though.

We can't have a 3-year extension in place at the end of next year. That's illegal.  And that's not what he's saying.  "A 3-year extension in place" means he's going to be traded and given a new contract as part of the trade, (like what we did with KG 10 years ago.)

It's fake.  Either this dude is an idiot who passes along whatever he hears without evaluating it, or he made it up himself.  I'll lower my fake rating to 99%, because it's doable if we trade Horford, and we'll be charitable and say there's a 1% chance Horford gets traded to make this thing happen.  But only 1%.

Otherwise, you could literally trade Tatum, Brown, Smart, Crowder, and Bradley and still not have the cap room to do this.  That's how impossible it is.  It's not close but difficult.  It's simply not happening, because there is no way for it to happen in the CBA.

One more question to throw at you, and it's for the sake of discussion, not trying to prove you wrong. Are you saying that DA can't talk to an agent of a prospective player acquired through a trade if Indy gives them permission?

No, I'm saying that they can't have an agreement that next year George will sign a new contract with the Celtics, because that's circumnavigating the CBA.  Having an agreement in place would essentially mean the Celtics got a lot of extra cap room that way, since they need that cap room to sign him legally.  If it was discovered the Celtics had done so, the penalties would be severe.  George's contract would be voided, he'd be prohibited from re-signing with the Celtics, and the Celtics would have draft picks taken away, probably some very good ones.  It would cost Ainge his job.

It's not a remote possibility.  That's not how Danny Ainge operates.

Semantics.  Of course they cannot have an agreement in place.  But he can have a conversation and PG - who seems to be an honest forthcoming guy based on him telling he pacers straight up there was no chance at him resigning - could say my mind and heart are not in La - if I enjoy Boston this season I would hope to sign long term.  And danny could decide that's enough for him.  Same thing happened with love and the cavs. Not an agreement but an understanding.  Requires trust and maybe too much depending on what we have to give up.

I'll trust you on the extend and trade bit - I'm no cap expert but you do seem absolutely right that there is no way to sign Hayward and extend and trade PG.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2017, 09:43:33 AM »

Offline mef730

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There is no way this is true.  The Celtics would need to have the cap room to give George an extension after trading for him.  They can do that without Hayward, but cannot possibly do that after signing Hayward.

100% Fake.

I am not a cap master like you are, but if we match salaries and re-sign him at the end of the season we don't have enough room? Also, this guy is a Boston media guy, so I wouldn't classify it as fake, he's hearing it from somewhere, that's why he's reporting it. That doesn't make it true though.

We can't have a 3-year extension in place at the end of next year. That's illegal.  And that's not what he's saying.  "A 3-year extension in place" means he's going to be traded and given a new contract as part of the trade, (like what we did with KG 10 years ago.)

It's fake.  Either this dude is an idiot who passes along whatever he hears without evaluating it, or he made it up himself.  I'll lower my fake rating to 99%, because it's doable if we trade Horford, and we'll be charitable and say there's a 1% chance Horford gets traded to make this thing happen.  But only 1%.

Otherwise, you could literally trade Tatum, Brown, Smart, Crowder, and Bradley and still not have the cap room to do this.  That's how impossible it is.  It's not close but difficult.  It's simply not happening, because there is no way for it to happen in the CBA.

It's possible if we are passing on Hayward/Griffin. And using some money to resign smart for example.

That's not what this "rumor" said. It's totally possible to sign Hayward and trade for George without an extension.  It's possible to not sign a max FA and trade for George with an extension.

But this made up thing that everyone wants to believe is not possible.  We cannot sign Hayward AND extend-and-trade for George.

Help me out here, since this isn't my area of expertise. How do we sign Hayward and then trade for George? Would it mean dumping everything that's not tied down for salary, or is there an exception built in?

Thanks,
Mike

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2017, 09:46:39 AM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Kaufman is actually pretty reliable and covers all the Boston sports. Very tuned in.

Usually he gets rumors and ideas based from other bigger sources.

He doesn't really BS though, and he even says, FWIW in this rumor.

I do agree that if Hayward signs and Paul George really does love the idea of playing alongside Hayward, we have a shot.

PG13 also has to see the writing on the wall for CLE and if Lebron moves out west, the east is there for the taking.

Plus it's more likely Lebron goes to LAC to team up with Wade, CP3 and Melo.
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2017, 09:53:27 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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I think they have a good shot at George, partly based on the Bird-Ainge connect. Plus the fact that the Celtics have a ton of assets useful for the Pacers--more than other teams. Namely , no.1 picks.  The synergy seems to exist: Hayward, the vulnerability of the Cavs, even Tatum's admission his role model is George.

As for whether they have enough cap space for Hayward and George, the answer is --find it-- the way teams like the Spurs and Warriors seem to, which allows them to stay on top. Lord knows there is tons of deadwood on the Celtics. Need I name the names?

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2017, 10:01:30 AM »

Offline saltlover

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There is no way this is true.  The Celtics would need to have the cap room to give George an extension after trading for him.  They can do that without Hayward, but cannot possibly do that after signing Hayward.

100% Fake.

I am not a cap master like you are, but if we match salaries and re-sign him at the end of the season we don't have enough room? Also, this guy is a Boston media guy, so I wouldn't classify it as fake, he's hearing it from somewhere, that's why he's reporting it. That doesn't make it true though.

We can't have a 3-year extension in place at the end of next year. That's illegal.  And that's not what he's saying.  "A 3-year extension in place" means he's going to be traded and given a new contract as part of the trade, (like what we did with KG 10 years ago.)

It's fake.  Either this dude is an idiot who passes along whatever he hears without evaluating it, or he made it up himself.  I'll lower my fake rating to 99%, because it's doable if we trade Horford, and we'll be charitable and say there's a 1% chance Horford gets traded to make this thing happen.  But only 1%.

Otherwise, you could literally trade Tatum, Brown, Smart, Crowder, and Bradley and still not have the cap room to do this.  That's how impossible it is.  It's not close but difficult.  It's simply not happening, because there is no way for it to happen in the CBA.

One more question to throw at you, and it's for the sake of discussion, not trying to prove you wrong. Are you saying that DA can't talk to an agent of a prospective player acquired through a trade if Indy gives them permission?

No, I'm saying that they can't have an agreement that next year George will sign a new contract with the Celtics, because that's circumnavigating the CBA.  Having an agreement in place would essentially mean the Celtics got a lot of extra cap room that way, since they need that cap room to sign him legally.  If it was discovered the Celtics had done so, the penalties would be severe.  George's contract would be voided, he'd be prohibited from re-signing with the Celtics, and the Celtics would have draft picks taken away, probably some very good ones.  It would cost Ainge his job.

It's not a remote possibility.  That's not how Danny Ainge operates.

Semantics.  Of course they cannot have an agreement in place.  But he can have a conversation and PG - who seems to be an honest forthcoming guy based on him telling he pacers straight up there was no chance at him resigning - could say my mind and heart are not in La - if I enjoy Boston this season I would hope to sign long term.  And danny could decide that's enough for him.  Same thing happened with love and the cavs. Not an agreement but an understanding.  Requires trust and maybe too much depending on what we have to give up.

I'll trust you on the extend and trade bit - I'm no cap expert but you do seem absolutely right that there is no way to sign Hayward and extend and trade PG.

That's not semantics.  This "rumor" said a 3-year ext in place.  That's very different from "Celtics feel confident they can re-sign him."  One of them is binding, the other is not.  It's a huge difference.  Just ask the Lakers about Dwight Howard.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2017, 10:05:03 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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I think they have a good shot at George, partly based on the Bird-Ainge connect. Plus the fact that the Celtics have a ton of assets useful for the Pacers--more than other teams. Namely , no.1 picks.  The synergy seems to exist: Hayward, the vulnerability of the Cavs, even Tatum's admission his role model is George.

As for whether they have enough cap space for Hayward and George, the answer is --find it-- the way teams like the Spurs and Warriors seem to, which allows them to stay on top. Lord knows there is tons of deadwood on the Celtics. Need I name the names?
That's not the same thing. The Spurs have never really had high-priced players during all their run other than Duncan, and GSW drafted their guys and they weren't yet eligible for the max. We're talking about the Celtics adding 2 vets at the max, we already have one at the max, and likely IT will be a max a year from now. That's not the same math GSW and the Spurs have been working under.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2017, 10:06:58 AM »

Offline saltlover

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There is no way this is true.  The Celtics would need to have the cap room to give George an extension after trading for him.  They can do that without Hayward, but cannot possibly do that after signing Hayward.

100% Fake.

I am not a cap master like you are, but if we match salaries and re-sign him at the end of the season we don't have enough room? Also, this guy is a Boston media guy, so I wouldn't classify it as fake, he's hearing it from somewhere, that's why he's reporting it. That doesn't make it true though.

We can't have a 3-year extension in place at the end of next year. That's illegal.  And that's not what he's saying.  "A 3-year extension in place" means he's going to be traded and given a new contract as part of the trade, (like what we did with KG 10 years ago.)

It's fake.  Either this dude is an idiot who passes along whatever he hears without evaluating it, or he made it up himself.  I'll lower my fake rating to 99%, because it's doable if we trade Horford, and we'll be charitable and say there's a 1% chance Horford gets traded to make this thing happen.  But only 1%.

Otherwise, you could literally trade Tatum, Brown, Smart, Crowder, and Bradley and still not have the cap room to do this.  That's how impossible it is.  It's not close but difficult.  It's simply not happening, because there is no way for it to happen in the CBA.

It's possible if we are passing on Hayward/Griffin. And using some money to resign smart for example.

That's not what this "rumor" said. It's totally possible to sign Hayward and trade for George without an extension.  It's possible to not sign a max FA and trade for George with an extension.

But this made up thing that everyone wants to believe is not possible.  We cannot sign Hayward AND extend-and-trade for George.

Help me out here, since this isn't my area of expertise. How do we sign Hayward and then trade for George? Would it mean dumping everything that's not tied down for salary, or is there an exception built in?

Thanks,
Mike

With the extension that this talks about? Either trade everything, including IT, or trade Horford and any other player with a cap hit equal to or greater than Smart's.

Without an extension it's relatively easy.  Just send out $14.5 million in salary.  Bradley and Crowder together make over $15 million, for example.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2017, 10:09:47 AM »

Offline jay

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Can certainly trade for him, just can't have any kind of agreement in place for an extension.

Waive all free agents, including Olynyk and Zeller. Trade Crowder and Bradley and pick(s) for George, should have enough room to sign Hayward. Might have to give someone a draft pick to take Jackson and Mickey.


The issue is Cap Space in the 2018-2019 season, assuming IT and George sign max extensions. (feel free to check my numbers, Im just guessing at the 31 mil part for Hayward, George, and IT) I know Hayward can sign a 4 year 131.6 mil deal so that should start him somewhere around 30 or 31 mil in year 1.

Horford 29mil
Jaylen 5 mil
Smart 6 mil
Rozier 3 mil
George 31 mil?
Hayward 31 mil?
IT 31 mil?
Tatum 5.5 mil
---------------------
Thats 141.5 mil for 8 players.  The salary cap was projected at 102 mil for that season and the luxury tax was projected at 124 mil. Wyc would really have to open up the checkbook. Horford would almost certainly be shopped for cap relief.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2017, 10:11:30 AM »

Offline Bobshot

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Kaufman is one of those WEEI types on twitter, and I wouldn't take everything he says factually. He's way off base on a lot of things. We don't need him to know something serious is going on for George. Woj says it, and Roto has printed it, though they say the talks "stalled" last night before the draft.

The cap mumbo jumbo I leave to Ainge and his staff. If they are talking seriously to the Pacers, it means they have a plan.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2017, 10:12:38 AM »

Offline saltlover

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Kaufman is actually pretty reliable and covers all the Boston sports. Very tuned in.

Usually he gets rumors and ideas based from other bigger sources.

He doesn't really BS though, and he even says, FWIW in this rumor.

I do agree that if Hayward signs and Paul George really does love the idea of playing alongside Hayward, we have a shot.

PG13 also has to see the writing on the wall for CLE and if Lebron moves out west, the east is there for the taking.

Plus it's more likely Lebron goes to LAC to team up with Wade, CP3 and Melo.

Jackie Mac had that equally non-reality-based rumor that Ainge was offering IT for a lottery pick in last year's draft.  I'm not going to revisit that one, other than to say reputation doesn't count for squat if you're only going to parrot what you've heard without considering if it's remotely possible. If I heard that and I were Kaufman, it would have taken me all of 5 seconds to say "Wow, the only way they can do that is if they trade Horford!" And then asked my source, "Is Horford part of this trade?"

Journalism should be about more than just repeating what you've been told.  It should be about evaluating what you've been told to see if there's a kernel of truth to it.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2017, 10:22:14 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Can certainly trade for him, just can't have any kind of agreement in place for an extension.

Waive all free agents, including Olynyk and Zeller. Trade Crowder and Bradley and pick(s) for George, should have enough room to sign Hayward. Might have to give someone a draft pick to take Jackson and Mickey.


The issue is Cap Space in the 2018-2019 season, assuming IT and George sign max extensions.

Horford 29mil
Jaylen 5 mil
Smart 6 mil
Rozier 3 mil
George 31 mil?
Hayward 31 mil?
IT 31 mil?
Tatum 5.5 mil
---------------------
Thats 141.5 mil for 8 players.  The salary cap was projected at 102 mil for that season and the luxury tax was projected at 124 mil. Wyc would really have to open up the checkbook. Horford would almost certainly be shopped for cap relief.
I don't think that Horford will ever be shopped, at least not until he's in the final year of his deal, unless the team falls apart. It sends a bad message to sign a FA then ship him out 2 years later. In any event, you get limited cap relief even if you trade a guy like Horford with the matching rules.

The Celtics might pay a big luxury tax for one season, but in spite of fan fantasies, paying it for a # of years isn't going to happen. Wyc Grousbeck isn't Dan Gilbert or Paul Allen.  The Cavs reportedly had a $55M cap penalty.

The reason GSW and the Spurs have been able to afford their salaries is because their teams were built on drafted players, not burning high draft picks on max veterans.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2017, 10:31:55 AM »

Offline chilidawg

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If we got George and signed him to an extension, I'd be happy not signing another FA.  George is better than Hayward or Griffin, imo, and fits in as a 3/4 beautifully.

Horford, George, Tatum, Brown, IT would be a lot of fun, and could be a serious contender in a year or two.

Re: Kaufman PG Tweets/Woj Stuff (Merged)
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2017, 10:42:28 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Isn't it possible Kaufman misspoke and that he didn't mean the extension was actually "in place" before the deal happened? They could sign Hayward and trade for George with a handshake agreement that he will sign an extension once he's on board. There isn't anything against the rules there, right? It's not like they've done anything that's actually legally binding.

What makes it unrealistic is the limit to what the Celts would be able to offer in an extension compared to what he'd get if he waited, as one poster mentioned.