For all the Josh Jackson supporters....

[dreamgreen]

I mean, everyone is always saying they wish Marcus Smart was a few inches taller...

or on another team .

or could shoot or drive to the bucket!

[Dchuck]

Presumably you answer the scoring questions in other areas.

Simple as that. It's not hard to figure out how a good basketball player helps your team. Jackson is very athletic, he's a versatile defender, he has a very high basketball iq, and if he develops a jumper(unlikely) he's a star.

Versatile wings is a good place to have multiple guys. Jaylen projects as a better scorer and shooter, Jackson should be better at everything else.

A few issues here:

This Boston Celtics team is one that is absolutely filled with "good basketball players".  Guys like Jae Crowder, Avery Bradley, Marcus Smart, Kelly Olynyk - these guys are all good basketball players. I'd even go so far as to put Al Horford in that category - though on the upper end of it. 

The problem is this...

Good basketball players are players who give you solid production on most nights, and good production on the occasional night.

This is exactly the reason why Boston struggled against teams like Chicago and Washington, and got destroyed by Cleveland.  On nights where guys like Bradley, Crowder, Smart and Olynyk played well, we almost always won those games.   On nights when those guys couldn't buy a basket, we got blown out. 

We relied far too much on Isaiah Thomas' heroics to drag us to victories, and as great a player and warrior as he is, he can't do it all for us every night, not without help.  When those "good" players are making their shots, then teams need to respect that and defend those guys, which opens up space for Thomas to do his thing.  But when those "good" players aren't making their shots, then opponents sag right off and throw all their attention at Thomas - and no player can face that every night and win.

The difference between a "good" player and a "star" player, is that star players can score more or less at will, and you never really have to worry about them beating themselves - you need to beat them. They aren't going to go 4 games straight without making shots, you need to force them to miss by making life difficult.  That requires a lot of defensive attention, which opens things up for other guys.

So as nice as "good" players are, you eventually get to that point where adding more and more "good" players doesn't help.

Al Horford is a nice player, but he's not an alpha dog. He's not a guy who is going to take the defense head on and dominate them all night long and force them to double/triple team him.  He's the type who will make the occasional open shots, but more often then not he's going to try to help the team by making plays with his passing.  He's not a constant threat to score - teams can lax off him a bit.

Boston doesn't need more Josh Jacksons.  Boston needs more Fultzs and Tatums.  When the offense isn't flowing, the support guys aren't making shots, Boston needs one or two guys who you can just give the ball to and say "go to work brother". Guys who can break down the defense when nothing else is working and WILL the ball into the basket.

Thomas is the only guy on our team right now who can do that, and if we want to get a step further then we came this year, as a team, we need to get at least one more guy who can take on that role.  The Cavs have Lebron and Kyrie, who can both create shots, and even that wasn't enough to beat Golden State.  This is what we are facing for the next 2-4 years.  This is the enemy we are trying to overcome. 

We need more then Jae Crowders, Marcus Smarts and Josh Jacksons to take that next step.

Exactly. 

And for the psychologist who analyzed the draft interviews, at the end of the day none of that matters.  There have been a ton of players who had subpar interviews but still destroy it on the court.

[Celtics4ever]

He shot higher in every percentage than Tatum save free throws.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/josh-jackson-2.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jayson-tatum-1.html


I like him because he has a lot of intangibles.

There seems a growing trend on this blog for people to post hyperbole and make claims and they seem not to think that people won"t or will be too lazy to test their opinions by looking at stats.

 

OK i have watched the videos and it's CLEARLY Tatum over JJ(which, i can also take it) for me

JJ you hope he can be a Butler guy, he shoot jumpers mostly with his wrist and that could be a problem in NBA(range/space), can guard 1-2s,the upside is there but more uncertainty

If this is the case why did Jackson shoot a better percentage than Tatum from everywhere but the free throw? 

Good shooters often use their wrist because it is a softer shot.   That is what the flexion of the wrist of the follow through is all about.   I am just curious but what percentage of threes did you shoot when you played  Reggie Miller?   Are you a coach, explayer or a fan.

Brown was not known as a shooter and our coaches helped him quite a bit.   That is the only knock on Jackson that Tatum has better reputation at, and if you look at their shooting percentages it is only true of FTs!

I think Ainge thinks they are so close he will take who falls to him.   Yet you don't hear much talk of Tatum sliding up to 2 but we hear a lot about Jackson.   That ought to speak volumes for you...


 

[playdream]

He shot higher in every percentage than Tatum save free throws.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/josh-jackson-2.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jayson-tatum-1.html


I like him because he has a lot of intangibles.

There seems a growing trend on this blog for people to post hyperbole and make claims and they seem not to think that people won"t or will be too lazy to test their opinions by looking at stats.

 

OK i have watched the videos and it's CLEARLY Tatum over JJ(which, i can also take it) for me

JJ you hope he can be a Butler guy, he shoot jumpers mostly with his wrist and that could be a problem in NBA(range/space), can guard 1-2s,the upside is there but more uncertainty

If this is the case why did Jackson shoot a better percentage than Tatum from everywhere but the free throw? 

Good shooters often use their wrist because it is a softer shot.   That is what the flexion of the wrist of the follow through is all about.   I am just curious but what percentage of threes did you shoot when you played  Reggie Miller?   Are you a coach, explayer or a fan.

Brown was not known as a shooter and our coaches helped him quite a bit.   That is the only knock on Jackson that Tatum has better reputation at, and if you look at their shooting percentages it is only true of FTs!

I think Ainge thinks they are so close he will take who falls to him.   Yet you don't hear much talk of Tatum sliding up to 2 but we hear a lot about Jackson.   That ought to speak volumes for you...


 

It's the mechanics man, there is nothing wrong to use the wrist and that's actually the most important part of it, yet JJ's problem is he gathered all the way and mostly "only" using his wrist, he has the touch so he is making it now, but this mechanic's problem has obvious concern that is wrist alone tend to lack of power and lack of control/change direction, thus will face challenge when longer range(NBA 3/no high archers) and guarded(difficult shot/moving shot) and resulting in poor ft%(too much power in ft distance)

In contrast Tatum uses his whole hand parts to shoot so it's fundamentally better and allows him to perfrom his stepback-fadeaways, ofcourse he still needs to refine his form to get better but the upside is different

[td450]

Tatum is bigger,  and over a year younger.

[playdream]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifyRHDdhjqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9lXn0_JIDs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58lwCNhVIAs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U10leBRu4ik
AB tend to use his wrist to much either so he can never do the go-ahead pullup or fadeaways like IT, he needs to stop in order to adjust the direction before he pullup
(and also the inconsistent shooting, it takes him years to control and refine his form but still when he is tired he most likely can't compensate it, thus the hot-cold days)

[Tr1boy]

Tatum is bigger,  and over a year younger.

In this case I don't think the little age gap matters as much

Tatum is very close to his ceiling already.  The three point shot , becoming stronger and refining his footwork on the defensive end are the only things he can really improve on

If it was between Isaac vs Jackson...the age gap might matter a little more imo

[Androslav]

No chance of Jackson ever playing with our group.

[Dchuck]

Tatum is bigger,  and over a year younger.

In this case I don't think the little age gap matters as much

Tatum is very close to his ceiling already.  The three point shot , becoming stronger and refining his footwork on the defensive end are the only things he can really improve on

If it was between Isaac vs Jackson...the age gap might matter a little more imo

Close to his ceiling?  Who says, you?

But Jackson isn't?

What's your logic behind that one?

[Tr1boy]

He shot higher in every percentage than Tatum save free throws.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/josh-jackson-2.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jayson-tatum-1.html


I like him because he has a lot of intangibles.

There seems a growing trend on this blog for people to post hyperbole and make claims and they seem not to think that people won"t or will be too lazy to test their opinions by looking at stats.

 

OK i have watched the videos and it's CLEARLY Tatum over JJ(which, i can also take it) for me

JJ you hope he can be a Butler guy, he shoot jumpers mostly with his wrist and that could be a problem in NBA(range/space), can guard 1-2s,the upside is there but more uncertainty

If this is the case why did Jackson shoot a better percentage than Tatum from everywhere but the free throw? 

Good shooters often use their wrist because it is a softer shot.   That is what the flexion of the wrist of the follow through is all about.   I am just curious but what percentage of threes did you shoot when you played  Reggie Miller?   Are you a coach, explayer or a fan.

Brown was not known as a shooter and our coaches helped him quite a bit.   That is the only knock on Jackson that Tatum has better reputation at, and if you look at their shooting percentages it is only true of FTs!

I think Ainge thinks they are so close he will take who falls to him.   Yet you don't hear much talk of Tatum sliding up to 2 but we hear a lot about Jackson.   That ought to speak volumes for you...


 

It's the mechanics man, there is nothing wrong to use the wrist and that's actually the most important part of it, yet JJ's problem is he gathered all the way and mostly "only" using his wrist, he has the touch so he is making it now, but this mechanic's problem has obvious concern that is wrist alone tend to lack of power and lack of control/change direction, thus will face challenge when longer range(NBA 3/no high archers) and guarded(difficult shot/moving shot) and resulting in poor ft%(too much power in ft distance)

In contrast Tatum uses his whole hand parts to shoot so it's fundamentally better and allows him to perfrom his stepback-fadeaways, ofcourse he still needs to refine his form to get better but the upside is different

I agree.   But I would like to see Tatum speed up his jump shot a little more.  Especially when shooting from the 3.   He didn't look comfortable in catch and shoot  or run around screens, catch and shoot situations

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Here's a solid write up about Jackson.

https://medium.com/@jzmazlish/age-josh-jackson-and-unexpected-development-158ed2c9a187

This to me is interesting.

Some scouting reports say otherwise, but there is little reason to believe Jackson is a truly elite defensive prospect. His competitiveness and defensive playmaking instincts are awesome, but he lacks length, strength, and awareness. Jackson’s skinny frame in conjunction with his relatively short (6'10) arms and not quite elite athleticism are a big deal. All of the great wing defenders in the league are long, strong, or athletic in a way Jackson is not.

[Tr1boy]

Tatum is bigger,  and over a year younger.

In this case I don't think the little age gap matters as much

Tatum is very close to his ceiling already.  The three point shot , becoming stronger and refining his footwork on the defensive end are the only things he can really improve on

If it was between Isaac vs Jackson...the age gap might matter a little more imo

Close to his ceiling?  Who says, you?

But Jackson isn't?

What's your logic behind that one?

no. not only me but other scouts

what do you think "polished offensive game" means? (how Tatum offensive game is described)   

Only thing standing in his way for a "total offensive game", is to shoot better from the 3 point line.  I'm also adding run around screens catch and shoot the 3 on the wish list

Defensively he could get stronger and develop top level footwork (to defend top level athletes)


Jackson is like the opposite.  Defensively he is polished. Elite motor.  Could use some more beef
Offensively he can refine his jump shot. Improve on his handles (its better than average though).   

If both players put it together, Jackson natural explosiveness/quickness could be the difference maker.  As we have seen with Jaylen Brown,  Jackson can makeup for defensive lapses/mistakes quickly.  Offensively make some plays regular athletes can't

[playdream]

He shot higher in every percentage than Tatum save free throws.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/josh-jackson-2.html

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jayson-tatum-1.html


I like him because he has a lot of intangibles.

There seems a growing trend on this blog for people to post hyperbole and make claims and they seem not to think that people won"t or will be too lazy to test their opinions by looking at stats.

 

OK i have watched the videos and it's CLEARLY Tatum over JJ(which, i can also take it) for me

JJ you hope he can be a Butler guy, he shoot jumpers mostly with his wrist and that could be a problem in NBA(range/space), can guard 1-2s,the upside is there but more uncertainty

If this is the case why did Jackson shoot a better percentage than Tatum from everywhere but the free throw? 

Good shooters often use their wrist because it is a softer shot.   That is what the flexion of the wrist of the follow through is all about.   I am just curious but what percentage of threes did you shoot when you played  Reggie Miller?   Are you a coach, explayer or a fan.

Brown was not known as a shooter and our coaches helped him quite a bit.   That is the only knock on Jackson that Tatum has better reputation at, and if you look at their shooting percentages it is only true of FTs!

I think Ainge thinks they are so close he will take who falls to him.   Yet you don't hear much talk of Tatum sliding up to 2 but we hear a lot about Jackson.   That ought to speak volumes for you...


 

It's the mechanics man, there is nothing wrong to use the wrist and that's actually the most important part of it, yet JJ's problem is he gathered all the way and mostly "only" using his wrist, he has the touch so he is making it now, but this mechanic's problem has obvious concern that is wrist alone tend to lack of power and lack of control/change direction, thus will face challenge when longer range(NBA 3/no high archers) and guarded(difficult shot/moving shot) and resulting in poor ft%(too much power in ft distance)

In contrast Tatum uses his whole hand parts to shoot so it's fundamentally better and allows him to perfrom his stepback-fadeaways, ofcourse he still needs to refine his form to get better but the upside is different

I agree.   But I would like to see Tatum speed up his jump shot a little more.  Especially when shooting from the 3.   He didn't look comfortable in catch and shoot  or run around screens, catch and shoot situations

Yes he still has long way to go, i think he tend to rely on his upper body not the whole body

[playdream]

Here's a solid write up about Jackson.

https://medium.com/@jzmazlish/age-josh-jackson-and-unexpected-development-158ed2c9a187

This to me is interesting.

Some scouting reports say otherwise, but there is little reason to believe Jackson is a truly elite defensive prospect. His competitiveness and defensive playmaking instincts are awesome, but he lacks length, strength, and awareness. Jackson’s skinny frame in conjunction with his relatively short (6'10) arms and not quite elite athleticism are a big deal. All of the great wing defenders in the league are long, strong, or athletic in a way Jackson is not.

That's what i see as well

[Tr1boy]

Here's a solid write up about Jackson.

https://medium.com/@jzmazlish/age-josh-jackson-and-unexpected-development-158ed2c9a187

This to me is interesting.

Some scouting reports say otherwise, but there is little reason to believe Jackson is a truly elite defensive prospect. His competitiveness and defensive playmaking instincts are awesome, but he lacks length, strength, and awareness. Jackson’s skinny frame in conjunction with his relatively short (6'10) arms and not quite elite athleticism are a big deal. All of the great wing defenders in the league are long, strong, or athletic in a way Jackson is not.

That's what i see as well

Disgree

Yes some of those points are valid..but this scout is pretty much describing Lebron or Durant or Leonard.

Butler has a short wingspan. Wiggins is weak. 

Jackson has a 40 plus inch vertical and elite 2nd jump to make up for his averag wingspan. Jackson strength is underrated. He was playing PF last season and was not outmuscled.   He is wiry strong.  Definitely needs to add more mass though to prepare for the nba

Defensive awareness?  .. this scout has no idea what he is talking about regarding this aspect of Jacksons game. Look at his steals numbers. Also he rarely got beat on backdoor/pnr plays