Author Topic: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick  (Read 106819 times)

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Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #615 on: October 22, 2017, 04:02:40 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #616 on: October 22, 2017, 04:07:51 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Its a bit early to call Fultz a bust or a bad pick, he could still turn out to be a helluva player. That said, I don't see where he could become so,much better than Tatum, if at all better, to make up for the Celtics getting a high draft pick in return in that trade.

Tatum just looks mechanically smooth and mature beyond his years. His length and defense have been very good and he is letting the game come to him naturally. I definitely think Ainge made the right move in that trade.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #617 on: October 22, 2017, 04:18:23 PM »

Offline max215

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #618 on: October 22, 2017, 04:31:37 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

Watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKFYft12ixA

I'm not buying the injury part. I think it's more of a mental block like Knoblauch back in the day.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #619 on: October 22, 2017, 04:37:13 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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If the draft was redone knowing how Fultz is doing now, where would Fultz be picked?

Suddenly getting someone like fox or DSJ seems Much more attractive than grabbing fultz. I could see fultz dropping anywhere from 7 to 11

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #620 on: October 22, 2017, 04:39:54 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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If the draft was redone knowing how Fultz is doing now, where would Fultz be picked?

Suddenly getting someone like fox or DSJ seems Much more attractive than grabbing fultz. I could see fultz dropping anywhere from 7 to 11

Ball and Smith would likely go ahead of him and he'll be battling with Fox for the 3rd PG off the board.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #621 on: October 22, 2017, 04:41:29 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

I can't fathom that they'd let him play if this was really caused by an injury given the last several years, especially since pretty much the same thing happened to Embiid last year in the nationally televised Houston game and cost him the rest of the season. And if they did for whatever reason (not to p--- off fans?), that's probably an even more concerning issue.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #622 on: October 22, 2017, 04:45:52 PM »

Offline max215

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

Watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKFYft12ixA

I'm not buying the injury part. I think it's more of a mental block like Knoblauch back in the day.

Certainly possible, but how do you explain the reluctance to shoot jumpers? That was his bread and butter in college.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #623 on: October 22, 2017, 04:49:14 PM »

Offline max215

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

I can't fathom that they'd let him play if this was really caused by an injury given the last several years, especially since pretty much the same thing happened to Embiid last year in the nationally televised Houston game and cost him the rest of the season. And if they did for whatever reason (not to p--- off fans?), that's probably an even more concerning issue.

Could be a pain tolerance thing with no real danger of aggravation, but I really have no idea. Personally, I don't think he should be out there at all right now. None of what he's doing right now is helping himself or the Sixers. And frankly, I'm just searching for an explanation that makes more sense than the equivalent of Steve Blass disease.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #624 on: October 22, 2017, 04:56:49 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

Watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKFYft12ixA

I'm not buying the injury part. I think it's more of a mental block like Knoblauch back in the day.

Certainly possible, but how do you explain the reluctance to shoot jumpers? That was his bread and butter in college.

Again, see Knoblauch. Fultz needs to see a sports psychologist asap.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #625 on: October 22, 2017, 04:58:10 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

I can't fathom that they'd let him play if this was really caused by an injury given the last several years, especially since pretty much the same thing happened to Embiid last year in the nationally televised Houston game and cost him the rest of the season. And if they did for whatever reason (not to p--- off fans?), that's probably an even more concerning issue.

Could be a pain tolerance thing with no real danger of aggravation, but I really have no idea. Personally, I don't think he should be out there at all right now. None of what he's doing right now is helping himself or the Sixers. And frankly, I'm just searching for an explanation that makes more sense than the equivalent of Steve Blass disease.

Completely agree. None of it makes any sense.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #626 on: October 22, 2017, 05:19:52 PM »

Offline max215

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I think it’s best to wait until the middle of the season at least.

I agree, but that didn't stop all the strong opinions against the trade before either player even wore a jersey. That said, if the draft were redone today I would strongly doubt Fultz is still #1 on too many boards.

Oh, yes, how dare anyone conduct draft evaluations? The audacity of some people.

Wait, so what you're saying is it's okay to have strong convictions prior to the draft, but it's premature to have an opinion based on actual NBA footage? It's fluid, but in that fluidity it's safe to say right now, October 22, 2017, Tatum is clearly the better player, has the most longterm potential between the two (Tatum vs Fultz), and Ainge was undoubtedly correct.

Yes, I think drawing conclusions from a season of college basketball is more reasonable than from 3 games of NBA basketball. I do not believe this is a hot take.

Really? So based on that I assume you believe that despite all the evidence we have on Fultz during summer league, preseason, the 3 regular season games, the footage on his FT shooting in scrimmages, and Brown being pretty concerned about his mechanics, you would still take those 25 college games, and draft him #1. Is that correct?

Edit:
I mean Derek Bodner, Sixers beat writer, who RARELY says a negative word on team recently said something to the effect of - The Sixers traded up to draft a Rondo, without the passing, at #1.

Yes, given the information I have access to, I'd still take him #1 overall. However, I'm now open to the possibility that Danny had access to information that justified the trade. As for Bodner, you added a fair amount of your own flavor to what he actually said:

https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/921953346973519872
Given the info I had prior to the draft, Id take Fultz #1 all day long, but I dont think Id take him #1 now. This is a legitimate and serious issue. He has either has a serious injury he should not be playing through, or he has a serious mental problem.

That's fine. I prefer to stick to my prior evaluation for longer, but Fultz looks like a different player now (for the worse). If you think that's who he is and not the special player we saw at Washington, then I would hope you wouldn't take him #1. I'm not pretending that I'm not concerned. What Fultz has shown is terrifying, but at Washington, he was truly special, and as bad as he's been, he's still shown some of that incredible herky jerky game that made him so unstoppable. I'm giving him time, and a lot of it, before I write him off.

I was on the Fultz train prior to the trade as much as you, Max, but I had Tatum ranked 2nd behind Fultz for us, which made me a little more accepting of the trade than you I think. The only two things that worried me about Fultz were his knees (non-issue so far) and his "go with the flow"/shaky mentality, which I think is primarily responsible for his terrible shot and start to the season.

Initially, I thought we could've extracted a bit more out of Philly, but I'm completely satisfied with the trade at this point, since it seems pretty clear that Danny was going to take Tatum first all along, meaning the extra pick is just gravy for us.

So a couple questions for you, Max. First, does the mentality thing not worry you now given his shot and how he's started? Given that this was a concern of mine prior to the draft (and I think I remember you mentioning being moderately concerned about this), this is a pretty major red flag for me. Second, do you think the fact that he was playing on a terrible Washington team has any relevance to his struggles so far?  It does make you wonder if the lower expectations on a terrible team allowed him to succeed, especially given the concerns regarding his mentality,

1. The mentality doesn't worry me all that much for a few reasons. He doesn't need the alpha, take-over-the-game mentality on the Sixers with Embiid and Simmons there. Furthermore, we don't really know. We don't have access to him. We can't talk to him, his coaches, or his teammates. He's not an expressive guy. That doesn't mean he doesn't care.

2. Nope. He was special at Washington, just like Simmons at LSU. They had terrible talent around them (more so Fultz than Simmons) and truly awful coaching.

Ultimately, I'm as baffled as anyone by the start of Fultz's career. I almost have to believe his injury is more serious than they're letting on, because otherwise, I really can't make sense of any of this. With such a bizarre situation, I think it's prudent to wait a little longer than 3 games.

Watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKFYft12ixA

I'm not buying the injury part. I think it's more of a mental block like Knoblauch back in the day.

Certainly possible, but how do you explain the reluctance to shoot jumpers? That was his bread and butter in college.

Again, see Knoblauch. Fultz needs to see a sports psychologist asap.

Probably would be a worthwhile idea.
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #627 on: October 22, 2017, 06:09:34 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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Sports psychology isn't going to help Fultz. His problem is that he is stupid. Stupid like a bag of rocks. Been obvious since the "Excited to head to (City) and join the (team name)" tweet.
"Young man, you have the question backwards." - Bill Russell

"My guess is that an aggregator of expert opinions would be close in terms of results to that of Danny." - Roy H.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #628 on: October 22, 2017, 06:13:04 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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If the draft was redone knowing how Fultz is doing now, where would Fultz be picked?

Suddenly getting someone like fox or DSJ seems Much more attractive than grabbing fultz. I could see fultz dropping anywhere from 7 to 11

Ball and Smith would likely go ahead of him and he'll be battling with Fox for the 3rd PG off the board.
you think Smith has jumped that high? no way hes over Fox
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Woj, Stein, & Lowe - C's and Sixers in serious talks for #1 pick
« Reply #629 on: October 22, 2017, 06:30:32 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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If the draft was redone knowing how Fultz is doing now, where would Fultz be picked?

Suddenly getting someone like fox or DSJ seems Much more attractive than grabbing fultz. I could see fultz dropping anywhere from 7 to 11

Ball and Smith would likely go ahead of him and he'll be battling with Fox for the 3rd PG off the board.
you think Smith has jumped that high? no way hes over Fox

Yeah, I absolutely do. Smith has looked sensational and now looks fully recovered from the knee injury in high school. Last year he didn't have this level of explosiveness.