Ainge's thoughts on 1993 draft = Fultz a Celtic

[jyyzzoel]

Would love everyone's feedback on this...

Saw this in a new article on "The Ringer."  Ainge says he thought Penny was the best prospect in his draft class.  Better than Chris Webber.  Taking this into account I would say 100% he takes Fultz at #1 because, realistically in this draft class, the only player who is as gifted as Penny was is Fultz and also even if you say Penny and Webber are on the same tier, is there any player in this draft who coming out of college has shown the potential to be even as good as Chris Webber?

Something to think about:

The league has seen the team with the no. 1 pick trade down twice since 1980. That year, the Celtics dealt the top pick (Joe Barry Carroll) for the third pick (Kevin McHale) and Robert Parish. The trade kick-started a dynasty. Then, in 1993, the Magic traded the no. 1 pick (Chris Webber) for no. 3 (Penny Hardaway), and three future firsts (1996, 1998, and 2000). “I thought it was the greatest trade in history,” current Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge told the Chicago Tribune in 1996. “I thought Penny Hardaway was the best player coming out of college that year. Straight up, I thought it was a pretty good trade, and still do. And three no. 1 picks? C’mon.”

https://theringer.com/2017-nba-draft-trade-down-lakers-suns-8d14f522df02

[playdream]

So ainge pretty much says he will trade down for tatum + firsts

[jyyzzoel]

So ainge pretty much says he will trade down for tatum + firsts

Except from what I've heard Scal say during a telecast (don't know which one) that the front office towards the end of the season has 1. Fultz 2. Tatum 3. Jackson 4. Ball

[mef730]

That was a great article, thanks. TP.

Two things:

First, given all the trading that goes on in the NBA, I was shocked to read that no team had traded a top-5 pick since 2008. It feels like somebody should have done so.

Second, what happens in a conditional trade when one half of the conditions don't occur? For instance, let's say that the Lakers want Jayson Tatum and the Suns want Lonzo Ball. They make an agreement ahead of time to swap picks, with the Lakers taking Ball and the Suns taking Tatum. All goes well at #2, and the Lakers take Ball. But then Philly throws a wrench into the system and drafts Tatum at #3. Wouldn't that mean that the Lakers are stuck with Ball, the guy they don't really want, and Phoenix just voids the trade?

Mike

[obnoxiousmime]

At the time Ainge made that comment, Webber had already disgruntled (can I use that as a verb) his way out of his first team, got injured in 95-96 and played only 15 games, and was two years away from moving on again to a third team. Meanwhile, Penny along with Shaq had just made a finals and an ECF, predictably since Shaq was such a monster.

Knowing what we know now with Penny's knees not being able to hold up and Webber eventually settling down and being the best player on some great Sacramento teams, the trade doesn't seem as one-sided as it did early on in their careers.

How does it relate to today? Well I don't see a Penny in this draft, nor is Fultz as high-profile a prospect as Webber was back then. Webber was pretty much destined for stardom and he had size, which was what every GM prized first and foremost at the time, though Webber's game would actually fit today's game even more. In that sense, if a Webber came out today I could see a team maybe not offering 4 picks but probably 2-3.

If you want to compare Webber's value at the time of the draft to more recent top picks, I'd say he was on a level around Durant/Oden but below Duncan and James. I'd put him slightly above Towns and Davis and a tier above Griffin/Howard.

Anyway, almost every team would have kept the pick and taken Webber in that situation. It's really only because the Magic were the only team that already had Shaq that such a rare trade like that happened.

[jyyzzoel]

Did anyone take notice of how Danny said getting three first round picks via one trade was awesome?   

[Moranis]

That was a great article, thanks. TP.

Two things:

First, given all the trading that goes on in the NBA, I was shocked to read that no team had traded a top-5 pick since 2008. It feels like somebody should have done so.

Second, what happens in a conditional trade when one half of the conditions don't occur? For instance, let's say that the Lakers want Jayson Tatum and the Suns want Lonzo Ball. They make an agreement ahead of time to swap picks, with the Lakers taking Ball and the Suns taking Tatum. All goes well at #2, and the Lakers take Ball. But then Philly throws a wrench into the system and drafts Tatum at #3. Wouldn't that mean that the Lakers are stuck with Ball, the guy they don't really want, and Phoenix just voids the trade?

Mike

plenty of picks that ended up in the top 5 have been traded but actually trading a pick after the lottery and before the draft that is in the top 5 is very rare.

It depends on if the trade is announced and how it is announced but generally a conditional trade is just that conditional which is whybwhat you describe won't happen

[Jvalin]

I believe Penny prior to the injuries was the 2nd/3rd best point guard of all time.

1. Magic
2/3. Penny/Oscar Robertson


Shaq top 5 center of all time (to say the least)

1/2/3/4/5. Russell/Kareem/Wilt/Dream/Shaq (not necessarily in that order)


If Penny had stayed healthy and Shaq had never left for the Lakers they would have built a dynasty.

[Surferdad]

Did anyone take notice of how Danny said getting three first round picks via one trade was awesome?   

Oh yeah, sure did.  Danny loves to "win" trades and getting Penny + 3 1st round picks is a great haul.

I think Danny is a bit guilty of using a superlative here "greatest trade in history" without necessarily thinking it through.  Such a statement would require some research to make definitively.

[Surferdad]

I believe Penny prior to the injuries was the 2nd/3rd best point guard of all time.

1. Magic
2/3. Penny/Oscar Robertson


Shaq top 5 center of all time (to say the least)

1/2/3/4/5. Russell/Kareem/Wilt/Dream/Shaq (not necessarily in that order)


If Penny had stayed healthy and Shaq had never left for the Lakers they would have built a dynasty.

It was Penny, Shaq and Grant Hill, right?  Hill also had injuries but managed a decent comeback.

[bdm860]

At the time Ainge made that comment, Webber had already disgruntled (can I use that as a verb) his way out of his first team, got injured in 95-96 and played only 15 games, and was two years away from moving on again to a third team. Meanwhile, Penny along with Shaq had just made a finals and an ECF, predictably since Shaq was such a monster.

Also the year Webber/Penny were coming out, Ainge was still an active player, having played 104 regular season + playoff games.  I don't think too much scouting really went on other than watching Penny in Blue Chips.

It's like, maybe Al Horford becomes that next great GM, but I wouldn't really trust his opinion right now about who the best player coming out of this draft is.

[Jvalin]

I believe Penny prior to the injuries was the 2nd/3rd best point guard of all time.

1. Magic
2/3. Penny/Oscar Robertson


Shaq top 5 center of all time (to say the least)

1/2/3/4/5. Russell/Kareem/Wilt/Dream/Shaq (not necessarily in that order)


If Penny had stayed healthy and Shaq had never left for the Lakers they would have built a dynasty.

It was Penny, Shaq and Grant Hill, right?  Hill also had injuries but managed a decent comeback.

No Shaq left in 1996. Penny left in 1999. Grant Hill (and T-Mac) signed with the Magic in 2000.

[Roy H.]

Doesn't it also mean that he won't hesitate to trade a consensus #1 pick? Danny also said he might have traded a top-2 pick in 2007, so its best not to read into this stuff.

[Jvalin]

Doesn't it also mean that he won't hesitate to trade a consensus #1 pick? Danny also said he might have traded a top-2 pick in 2007, so its best not to read into this stuff.

Danny was telling Red in the late 80's that he should trade Larry Legend! If he thinks the price is right, he is willing to trade anybody.

That being said, I believe we 'll keep the pick the draft Fultz.

[Celtics4ever]

Saw this in a new article on "The Ringer."  Ainge says he thought Penny was the best prospect in his draft class.  Better than Chris Webber.  Taking this into account I would say 100% he takes Fultz at #1 because, realistically in this draft class, the only player who is as gifted as Penny was is Fultz and also even if you say Penny and Webber are on the same tier, is there any player in this draft who coming out of college has shown the potential to be even as good as Chris Webber?

I don't think Fultz is that similar to Penny.  Hardaway is a bit bigger   6-7 which makes him more of a matchup problems.    Ainge isn't going to tell anyone what he thinks or show his hand because he wants to get the best deal for the team.    I

I believe Penny prior to the injuries was the 2nd/3rd best point guard of all time.

1. Magic
2/3. Penny/Oscar Robertson

I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read this and this is some of the best sarcasm
I 've seen on the board.   Stockton is up there, too.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardaan01.html