Author Topic: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise  (Read 40288 times)

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Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #165 on: June 14, 2017, 04:31:02 PM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Mike Trudell: Jackson thinks it could be “really special” playing with Ingram. Noted how GSW+CLE didn’t play centers in “winning time.” Versatility a key.

What about Jaylen...Josh?

Except Jackson is not versatile...at all.

He on defense he can only cover SG and SF,  on offense he can only play SF, he's an average ball handler,  his got a hideous jump shot,  and has major red flags due to legitimately concerning off court issues.

Jackson to me like like a defensive role player at worst,  average starter at best.   He is my Brandon Ingram of this year's draft - massively overhyped guy who will probably be a massive bust.

If take Fultz, Tatum and even Ball over him.   I'm not looking for complimentary player with a top 3 pick - im looking for star of bust.  And I dont feel Jackson has star potential. He's just to much of a tweener physically,  while at the same time raw and lacking in elite skills.

NBADraft.net:
Quote
One of the main things that jumps out at you is JJ's versatility on both sides of the ball
DraftExpress:
Quote
Outlook: Super versatile wing player.
Chad Ford:
Quote
Jackson is probably the best fit for Phoenix in the draft. He's a versatile two-way wing who is great in the open court,
CBS Sports:
Quote
Josh Jackson is the best two-way player in this year’s draft. As tall as Draymond Green (6’8″) and as athletic as Andrew Wiggins, Jackson can go into any system without disrupting the offense. (Kawhi Leonard came into the NBA as a similar prospect on both offense and defense.) His versatility on offense, mixed with his ability to guard multiple positions, would make him as a great fit anywhere.

Of course, we're all entitled to our opinions.

Sounds like the same type of people who cited "versatility" when taking overhyping my aforementioned prospects like Winslow amd Gordon, not to mention Ingram, Bender  and even Wiggins (who is a talented scorer who can do little else).

Ive said it once,  im say it again - every single year just about,  there's almost always a massively hyped guy in the top 3 who every mock draft is obsessed about,  who end up being a complete nobody.

People NOW are saying things like Gordom and Winslow are nowhere near the prospects Jackson is, etc....all while ignoring the fact that many mock drafts has both of those guys going to 3 or 4 in their drafts and were gushing about their "versatility".

How many are saying Ingram was BY FAR the best prospect in the draft,  and the second coming off Kevin Durant?  It was obvious from day one that he was never that guy.

Jackson is being overrated so badly it makes my eyes hurt just reading half the garbage people are writing.

I love that quote for example - "as tall as Draymond Green and as athletic as Andrew Wiggins".  Do these geniuses saying this not actually do their research to see that Andrew Wiggins already IS as tall as Draymond Green?! As are half the wings in the NBA.  Draymond Green is a massively undersized PF and has been successful in spite of (not because of)  that height.

Difference is that Green has the length and physical strength / power to play the PF spot and even stretches at center, while Jackson is built like a stick figure and has the same wingspan as Rajon Rondo and Marcus Smart - versus Wiggins who has the wingspan of Lebron (in the 7'0" range).

On top of that Jackson lacks the handles and its too turnover prone with the ball to play SG against NBA defence, his shooting form is totally broken (~55% FT),  he lacks the length and strength to play PF and lacks the frame to likely ever be able to build up enough to do so, he lacks Nba 3Pt range.   

He's basically an athletic wing who can defend on the perimeter at a high level and score off drives and lobs and in transition,  and that's pretty much it.  And despite that raw nature, he's not especially young either (20 in college) by rookie standards.

I mean look - nobody truly KNOWS  what any prospect will grow up to become.   Every year there are guys who are drafted top 3 who end up role players, and guys who are drafted out of the lottery who end up great staters or stars.  So I may well be wrong, and Jackson might come out and Al silence me from day one.   

But I doubt it.   I've seen way too many players of his type (athletic, defensive minded combo-forwards) who have come through the draft hyped like crazy,  and ultimately amounted to nothing.   And most of those guys didn't have Jackson's lack of physical strength, his mediocre wingspan, or his off-court concerns. I dont see any one talent or skill in this kid that screams "future star".  I see a kid who can run and jump and defend,  and who I expect will struggle to do much beyond that when he finds himself facing NBA size and skill.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:48:25 PM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #166 on: June 14, 2017, 05:29:48 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Sounds like the same type of people who cited "versatility" when taking overhyping my aforementioned prospects like Winslow amd Gordon, not to mention Ingram, Bender  and even Wiggins (who is a talented scorer who can do little else).

Ive said it once,  im say it again - every single year just about,  there's almost always a massively hyped guy in the top 3 who every mock draft is obsessed about,  who end up being a complete nobody.

He is versatile on defense.  This article states he could come in the finals and contribute.  It also says he has defensive versatility.

Quote
Ultimately, Jackson’s best attribute as a defender is his versatility. He should be able to switch screens and guard up to four positions. You can make an argument that Jonathan Isaac has the highest defensive upside of any player in this draft, but Jackson is the safest bet to thrive on that end from the moment he enters the league.

Jackson is an unselfish and gifted passer

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/6/15740310/josh-jackson-nba-draft-2017-lakers-76ers-defense-passing-finals

Defense is his strong point and he is supposedly can't miss in that regard.  He has his warts on offense though certainly.

Quote
“I like him a lot,” one executive said. “I don’t know if he has elite offensive skill. I know people compare him to Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. That’s not a bad comparison. I think (Jackson is) a little more advanced offensively. But I don’t know if he has the same defensive ability. But he’ll be good because he can defend and he’s athletic. I think he’s close to being bust-proof on the defensive end. Everybody can be a bust. It can happen. But he can pass and his motor and his toughness and he’s a leader. He shows leadership. I like the way he plays. But he’s got a ways to go offensively.”

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/03/16/kansas-jayhawks-josh-jackson-makes-case-be-drafts-top-pick

Quote
No fast break is safe against Jackson. At 6-foot-8 and 207 pounds, he has a rare combination of size and speed that allows him to eat up the space between him and anyone with a head start. With a 6-foot-10 wingspan, Jackson doesn’t have exceptional length for a player his height, so his ability to make these types of chase-down blocks tells you he’s getting really high in the air:

https://theringer.com/josh-jacksons-achilles-heel-will-keep-him-from-going-no-1-3ed0b79a4768

Scouting tape for defense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbo8Nf1CuaE


College  Defensive Stats
                                Steal Percentage           Block Percentage   Combined
Jaylen Brown                  1.7                                  2.2                  3.9
Josh Jackson                   3.1                                  5.1                  8.2
Marcus Smart                   5.0                                 1.9                  6.9

Yes, he will be as good if not better defender than Smart!  But he also is dare you to shoot bad shooter on offense.

Quote
ackson is scoring only 0.789 points per possession on catch-and-shoot jumpers and 0.682 points per possession on jumpers he’s created off the dribble, which is the primary reason why he has been such a poor scorer in isolations and pick-and-rolls. He’s no higher than 36th percentile in the nation in either of these situations.

https://theringer.com/josh-jacksons-achilles-heel-will-keep-him-from-going-no-1-3ed0b79a4768


Quote
Nevertheless, it is Jackson's defense and overall competitiveness that is one of his most attractive traits. He's a fiery guy who has been a two-way player his entire career, and showed the ability to guard anywhere from 1-4 in college. Jackson takes great pride in his ability to shut down opponents, and does an outstanding job of sitting down in a stance, sliding his feet and locking up players on the perimeter with his lateral quickness, often drawing charges. He's a physical player who throws his body around and isn't afraid to mix things up despite his lanky frame. Even if he isn't the longest player around, he gets in the passing lanes frequently with his quickness and anticipation skills, and also rebounds and blocks shots prolifically with outstanding timing. He'll need to get stronger to handle the bigger and more experienced players he'll encounter at times in the NBA, and is a little spastic at times gambling and getting lost off the ball, but his combination of intensity, athleticism and instincts leaves a great deal of room for optimism in his upside on this end of the floor. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Josh-Jackson-7239/ ©DraftExpress

Now offense, I can see the concerns but most scouts think he is the best two way player.  He needs to improve his ball handling and shooting.   But he is athletic and can play point forward.   

Jackson has the intangibles like competitiveness and will to win that a lot of these other guys do not possess.   It is a strength but it also makes him intense off the court.   

The hype this draft is Fultz.   He may be the real deal, but he went from 7th in his class to the number one pick

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2016/order/true

Jackson has always been in the top two.

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #167 on: June 14, 2017, 05:40:31 PM »

Offline clevelandceltic

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Sounds like the same type of people who cited "versatility" when taking overhyping my aforementioned prospects like Winslow amd Gordon, not to mention Ingram, Bender  and even Wiggins (who is a talented scorer who can do little else).

Ive said it once,  im say it again - every single year just about,  there's almost always a massively hyped guy in the top 3 who every mock draft is obsessed about,  who end up being a complete nobody.

He is versatile on defense.  This article states he could come in the finals and contribute.  It also says he has defensive versatility.

Quote
Ultimately, Jackson’s best attribute as a defender is his versatility. He should be able to switch screens and guard up to four positions. You can make an argument that Jonathan Isaac has the highest defensive upside of any player in this draft, but Jackson is the safest bet to thrive on that end from the moment he enters the league.

Jackson is an unselfish and gifted passer

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/6/6/15740310/josh-jackson-nba-draft-2017-lakers-76ers-defense-passing-finals

Defense is his strong point and he is supposedly can't miss in that regard.  He has his warts on offense though certainly.

Quote
“I like him a lot,” one executive said. “I don’t know if he has elite offensive skill. I know people compare him to Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. That’s not a bad comparison. I think (Jackson is) a little more advanced offensively. But I don’t know if he has the same defensive ability. But he’ll be good because he can defend and he’s athletic. I think he’s close to being bust-proof on the defensive end. Everybody can be a bust. It can happen. But he can pass and his motor and his toughness and he’s a leader. He shows leadership. I like the way he plays. But he’s got a ways to go offensively.”

http://www.nba.com/article/2017/03/16/kansas-jayhawks-josh-jackson-makes-case-be-drafts-top-pick

Quote
No fast break is safe against Jackson. At 6-foot-8 and 207 pounds, he has a rare combination of size and speed that allows him to eat up the space between him and anyone with a head start. With a 6-foot-10 wingspan, Jackson doesn’t have exceptional length for a player his height, so his ability to make these types of chase-down blocks tells you he’s getting really high in the air:

https://theringer.com/josh-jacksons-achilles-heel-will-keep-him-from-going-no-1-3ed0b79a4768

Scouting tape for defense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbo8Nf1CuaE


College  Defensive Stats
                                Steal Percentage           Block Percentage   Combined
Jaylen Brown                  1.7                                  2.2                  3.9
Josh Jackson                   3.1                                  5.1                  8.2
Marcus Smart                   5.0                                 1.9                  6.9

Yes, he will be as good if not better defender than Smart!  But he also is dare you to shoot bad shooter on offense.

Quote
ackson is scoring only 0.789 points per possession on catch-and-shoot jumpers and 0.682 points per possession on jumpers he’s created off the dribble, which is the primary reason why he has been such a poor scorer in isolations and pick-and-rolls. He’s no higher than 36th percentile in the nation in either of these situations.

https://theringer.com/josh-jacksons-achilles-heel-will-keep-him-from-going-no-1-3ed0b79a4768


Quote
Nevertheless, it is Jackson's defense and overall competitiveness that is one of his most attractive traits. He's a fiery guy who has been a two-way player his entire career, and showed the ability to guard anywhere from 1-4 in college. Jackson takes great pride in his ability to shut down opponents, and does an outstanding job of sitting down in a stance, sliding his feet and locking up players on the perimeter with his lateral quickness, often drawing charges. He's a physical player who throws his body around and isn't afraid to mix things up despite his lanky frame. Even if he isn't the longest player around, he gets in the passing lanes frequently with his quickness and anticipation skills, and also rebounds and blocks shots prolifically with outstanding timing. He'll need to get stronger to handle the bigger and more experienced players he'll encounter at times in the NBA, and is a little spastic at times gambling and getting lost off the ball, but his combination of intensity, athleticism and instincts leaves a great deal of room for optimism in his upside on this end of the floor. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Josh-Jackson-7239/ ©DraftExpress

Now offense, I can see the concerns but most scouts think he is the best two way player.  He needs to improve his ball handling and shooting.   But he is athletic and can play point forward.   

Jackson has the intangibles like competitiveness and will to win that a lot of these other guys do not possess.   It is a strength but it also makes him intense off the court.   

The hype this draft is Fultz.   He may be the real deal, but he went from 7th in his class to the number one pick

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/playerrankings/_/class/2016/order/true

Jackson has always been in the top two.

Okafor was always ranked ahead of Towns.

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #168 on: June 14, 2017, 06:10:26 PM »

Offline GRADYCOLNON

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This is either a really sly move by the Lakers to disrupt other teams' plans, or they have jumped off the Ball-hype train.

Expect Ball to drop down to the Kings.  Former Sixers President Colangelo (the dad) has made critical comments.  Considering he most likely has his son's ear, the Sixers will likely pick someone else.  The Suns don't need another guard, and if they do pick him, it is to trade him for some experienced talent to play with their core.

This leaves the Kings as the best spot to pick up the falling Ball.  He is the point guard they need to orchestrate their offense and improve their litany of young players.

As for the Celtics, I think it is disappointing that they are not getting a chance to see what this kid perform their workout.  I do like the prospects of Jackson and Brown together; it would be a 1/2 punch that will dominate the 2 and 3 across the league in 5 years.

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #169 on: June 15, 2017, 02:32:05 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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So you're just not a fan of players who beat women or do stupid things under the influence of alcohol.  I can understand that.  With such a vehement opposition to such behavior, I assume you also don't care for:
- Robert Parish, who beat his wife over the course of a many years
- Larry Bird, who got into a bar fight during the '85 playoffs


As long as you're consistent, that's cool.  If not...you may want to consider ratcheting down your righteous indignation over Jackson's behavior.

I do not.  I will say, though, that in terms of what happened in '85, since I wasn't around then but love reading about Celtic history, etc., do we actually know what happened, because I thought that those records were sealed and Bird settled out of court or something, but I'm probably wrong.  I also don't believe that Larry was drunk at the time, but, again, I'm probably wrong, as I thought that what went down was the result of his "friend" hitting on someone else's girlfriend, or whatever, right?  Am I doing okay so far, lol? ;D

OK, cool, as long as you're consistent, have fun with the righteous indignation.  Must be tough being a C's fan and having such an intense dislike for Larry Bird.  The way he shut his daughter out must really p--- you off. 

And as far as the bar fight...he was in a bar, so I'm assuming he was drinking, since he readily admitted that he liked to drink and have a good time. And he did have a fight, because he later admitted that it was his fault.  So yeah, we do know what happened, at least enough to know that bad decision making can happen to anyone, and that sometime a lapse of judgement is just a lapse of judgement, and not a sign of pathological problem



Actually, Bird's my favorite player.  Ever.  But that doesn't excuse what happened in 85, even though they weren't going to beat the Lakers that year, anyway, imo, and yes, I do know that he liked to drink and have a good time, and probably still does, lol ;D.

The principal difference, to me, however, is that the bar fight was one such incident during a 13 year career, as far as I know, and while that doesn't make it okay, it was more of a blip on the radar, so to speak, whereas with Jackson has already been involved with the cops three times during one year of college, which, while it might not be a pattern, doesn't look good, to say the least, imo.  I'm sorry for valuing character? ::)
I don't think anyone's buying your holier than thou act.

Jackson is 20 years old and none of us have ever met him. Keep your character judgements to yourself.

What holier than thou act?  These are legitimate concerns, in my view.  Has Ainge not repeatedly stated over the years that he values high character individuals?

Oh yeah, and if you're going to request that I keep such opinions to myself, which you have no right to do, btw, could you at least be bothered to spell judgments correctly? ::)  Thanks ;).
Concerns. Yes.

You don't have nearly enough evidence to condemn his character.

I have no problem with anyone who is very concerned about his character and who wouldn't pick him without a rigorous evaluation process of said character, but the rush to condemn the kid because of his criminal record is unfair to Jackson and strikes me as someone who is trying to make sure they are on the politically correct side before they make sure they are actually correct. Jackson might be an **** misogynist. He might not be. We don't have enough info to make a hard and fast judgement.

And we don't have enough info to dismiss it, either ;). And yeah, that's what I was going for, there, by raising said concerns ::).

He was a 19 year old drunk idiot who kicked a taillight.  Stupid, regretful, but that is all.  People need to get over it.

But that's just the thing - it's not all.

As Roy already pointed out to you, that is all.  Why hate on a 19 year old kid?  I don't get it.

Hey, I understand some of your anger.   Do you not remember being 19 years old?  Do you not remember how some of your friends acted at that age?  The fact is 19 year olds are idiots and do 19 year old idiotic things.  I doesn't mean they are evil or irredeemable.

Please don't attempt to lecture me on adolescent behavior when you know absolutely nothing about my life, and I'm not saying that he's beyond hope, as people can obviously grow and change, but as of right now, I wouldn't pick him.  I'm sorry that I don't buy into your 'boys will be boys' rationale ::).

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #170 on: June 15, 2017, 02:40:03 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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But...you didn't merely raise concerns, you completely condemned the possibility of selecting him.  It was the vehemence of your response that got the ball rolling when you said
Quote
Under the influence of alcohol or not, I have absolutely zero interest in anyone who threatens a woman, period, let alone by telling her that he was going to, “beat her ass,” not to mention his failure to leave his contact information after backing into another vehicle, iirc, and to top it all off, he has to attend anger management classes as well as, "refrain from alcohol and recreational drugs for 12 months and write an apology letter," per his diversion agreement stemming from the first "incident," so put me down for ABSOLUTELY NOT.  How many red flags do you need?"

That's not really a position that sounds interested in raising the issue for the purposes of open discussion. 

But hey, it's cool for you to re-trench along the lines of 'raising concerns' if you want.  It's OK sometimes if people say things in the moment that, in retrospect,they may have said differently if they'd given it more thought. Kind like Jackson's reaction to the woman in the car. 

Also possible that his actions are a red flag.  Just seems like it's a little early to take that stand unequivocally.  Iverson had some legal issues before he hit the NBA, but he also ended up being a Hall of Famer....

Are you seriously attempting to compare my post to what Jackson did? :o That's amazing ::), and I'm not going to apologize for being opposed to these actions that, according to you, are possible red flags? :o Seriously?  Possible?  Wow.

As for Iverson, Robert Parish, Bernard King, and Dennis Rodman are in the hall of fame, too, so what's your point?

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #171 on: June 15, 2017, 02:55:36 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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What are the other things? A traffic ticket (Jaylen got arrested for multiple traffic violations), and being listed as one of six witnesses (including two female witnesses) in a police report involving an alleged rape. "Witness" doesn't mean he was an eye witness to a rape or that he did anything wrong at all, which is what you seem to be implying.

As others have said, there's a process. Police seem to have actually taken this stuff seriously, rather than cover it up. If Jaylen did anything wrong outside of drinking and kicking a car, NBA teams will know.

In short, allegations aren't facts, and innuendo is even worse. It doesn't mean you can't dislike the guy, but some of the remarks in this thread about what happened are exaggerated.

1).  I honestly don't remember hearing that about Brown.

2).  Thanks for the education ::).  True, he might not have been there when the alleged rape occurred, but if he knew about it and did nothing to stop it, that's even worse, although I'm just throwing that out there, and I don't see how saying that two of the witnesses were female in any way makes what allegedly happened any less severe, which is what you seem to be implying ;).

In short, neither you, nor I, was there, so we don't have all of the information, but I won't apologize for preferring players who aren't even called in for questioning about such an incident.  That's a big deal to me.

3).  I thought that it was Jackson ;).

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #172 on: June 15, 2017, 07:26:53 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Mike Trudell: Jackson thinks it could be “really special” playing with Ingram. Noted how GSW+CLE didn’t play centers in “winning time.” Versatility a key.

What about Jaylen...Josh?

Except Jackson is not versatile...at all.

He on defense he can only cover SG and SF,  on offense he can only play SF, he's an average ball handler,  his got a hideous jump shot,  and has major red flags due to legitimately concerning off court issues.

Jackson to me like like a defensive role player at worst,  average starter at best.   He is my Brandon Ingram of this year's draft - massively overhyped guy who will probably be a massive bust.

If take Fultz, Tatum and even Ball over him.   I'm not looking for complimentary player with a top 3 pick - im looking for star of bust.  And I dont feel Jackson has star potential. He's just to much of a tweener physically,  while at the same time raw and lacking in elite skills.

NBADraft.net:
Quote
One of the main things that jumps out at you is JJ's versatility on both sides of the ball
DraftExpress:
Quote
Outlook: Super versatile wing player.
Chad Ford:
Quote
Jackson is probably the best fit for Phoenix in the draft. He's a versatile two-way wing who is great in the open court,
CBS Sports:
Quote
Josh Jackson is the best two-way player in this year’s draft. As tall as Draymond Green (6’8″) and as athletic as Andrew Wiggins, Jackson can go into any system without disrupting the offense. (Kawhi Leonard came into the NBA as a similar prospect on both offense and defense.) His versatility on offense, mixed with his ability to guard multiple positions, would make him as a great fit anywhere.

Of course, we're all entitled to our opinions.

Sounds like the same type of people who cited "versatility" when taking overhyping my aforementioned prospects like Winslow amd Gordon, not to mention Ingram, Bender  and even Wiggins (who is a talented scorer who can do little else).

Ive said it once,  im say it again - every single year just about,  there's almost always a massively hyped guy in the top 3 who every mock draft is obsessed about,  who end up being a complete nobody.

People NOW are saying things like Gordom and Winslow are nowhere near the prospects Jackson is, etc....all while ignoring the fact that many mock drafts has both of those guys going to 3 or 4 in their drafts and were gushing about their "versatility".

How many are saying Ingram was BY FAR the best prospect in the draft,  and the second coming off Kevin Durant?  It was obvious from day one that he was never that guy.

Jackson is being overrated so badly it makes my eyes hurt just reading half the garbage people are writing.

I love that quote for example - "as tall as Draymond Green and as athletic as Andrew Wiggins".  Do these geniuses saying this not actually do their research to see that Andrew Wiggins already IS as tall as Draymond Green?! As are half the wings in the NBA.  Draymond Green is a massively undersized PF and has been successful in spite of (not because of)  that height.

Difference is that Green has the length and physical strength / power to play the PF spot and even stretches at center, while Jackson is built like a stick figure and has the same wingspan as Rajon Rondo and Marcus Smart - versus Wiggins who has the wingspan of Lebron (in the 7'0" range).

On top of that Jackson lacks the handles and its too turnover prone with the ball to play SG against NBA defence, his shooting form is totally broken (~55% FT),  he lacks the length and strength to play PF and lacks the frame to likely ever be able to build up enough to do so, he lacks Nba 3Pt range.   

He's basically an athletic wing who can defend on the perimeter at a high level and score off drives and lobs and in transition,  and that's pretty much it.  And despite that raw nature, he's not especially young either (20 in college) by rookie standards.

I mean look - nobody truly KNOWS  what any prospect will grow up to become.   Every year there are guys who are drafted top 3 who end up role players, and guys who are drafted out of the lottery who end up great staters or stars.  So I may well be wrong, and Jackson might come out and Al silence me from day one.   

But I doubt it.   I've seen way too many players of his type (athletic, defensive minded combo-forwards) who have come through the draft hyped like crazy,  and ultimately amounted to nothing.   And most of those guys didn't have Jackson's lack of physical strength, his mediocre wingspan, or his off-court concerns. I dont see any one talent or skill in this kid that screams "future star".  I see a kid who can run and jump and defend,  and who I expect will struggle to do much beyond that when he finds himself facing NBA size and skill.

I have to agree. There are prospects like this every year it seems, tough-nosed defenders that are safe picks if you're looking for a rotation guy but don't have the offensive ability to ever be a star, or a starter on a very good team. Everybody has that hope that a player can turn into Kawhi Leonard but he is looking like a massive anomaly at this point. I think that teams think, well at the very least he won't be a bust and if he develops a 3 pt. shot at least he's a 3 and D guy which has a lot of value now. How often does that happen though?

Yes, we all love gamers and competitive tough guys. In the end you still have to have the ability though.

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #173 on: June 15, 2017, 07:46:11 AM »

Offline max215

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Jackson is far better than Winslow and Gordon.  Comparing a very good player to two stiffs?

I happen to like Jackson, but two stiffs? Really? Gordon went 4th in what was considered a loaded draft, and it was shocking that Winslow fell to 10--Danny thought he was enough of a prospect to offer six picks for him. You can legitimately criticize these prospects without inventing history.
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Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #174 on: June 15, 2017, 08:22:44 AM »

Offline moiso

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Jackson is far better than Winslow and Gordon.  Comparing a very good player to two stiffs?

I happen to like Jackson, but two stiffs? Really? Gordon went 4th in what was considered a loaded draft, and it was shocking that Winslow fell to 10--Danny thought he was enough of a prospect to offer six picks for him. You can legitimately criticize these prospects without inventing history.
They were both very nice prospects coming out of college but they both seem like they turned into their worst case scenarios as players.  I wouldn't expect Jackson to also turn into his worst case scenario as a player.

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #175 on: June 15, 2017, 08:25:56 AM »

Offline max215

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Jackson is far better than Winslow and Gordon.  Comparing a very good player to two stiffs?

I happen to like Jackson, but two stiffs? Really? Gordon went 4th in what was considered a loaded draft, and it was shocking that Winslow fell to 10--Danny thought he was enough of a prospect to offer six picks for him. You can legitimately criticize these prospects without inventing history.
They were both very nice prospects coming out of college but they both seem like they turned into their worst case scenarios as players.  I wouldn't expect Jackson to also turn into his worst case scenario as a player.

Yes, they both seem to have hit low-end outcomes, but they were considered very good prospects, probably lesser than Jackson, but still very good. Jackson could well end up hitting a high-end outcome and being much better than those two, or he too could hit a low-end outcome and end up being comparable. As prospects, the three are all pretty similar.
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Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #176 on: June 15, 2017, 09:09:16 AM »

Offline footey

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Quote
Mike Trudell: Jackson thinks it could be “really special” playing with Ingram. Noted how GSW+CLE didn’t play centers in “winning time.” Versatility a key.

What about Jaylen...Josh?

Except Jackson is not versatile...at all.

He on defense he can only cover SG and SF,  on offense he can only play SF, he's an average ball handler,  his got a hideous jump shot,  and has major red flags due to legitimately concerning off court issues.

Jackson to me like like a defensive role player at worst,  average starter at best.   He is my Brandon Ingram of this year's draft - massively overhyped guy who will probably be a massive bust.

If take Fultz, Tatum and even Ball over him.   I'm not looking for complimentary player with a top 3 pick - im looking for star of bust.  And I dont feel Jackson has star potential. He's just to much of a tweener physically,  while at the same time raw and lacking in elite skills.

NBADraft.net:
Quote
One of the main things that jumps out at you is JJ's versatility on both sides of the ball
DraftExpress:
Quote
Outlook: Super versatile wing player.
Chad Ford:
Quote
Jackson is probably the best fit for Phoenix in the draft. He's a versatile two-way wing who is great in the open court,
CBS Sports:
Quote
Josh Jackson is the best two-way player in this year’s draft. As tall as Draymond Green (6’8″) and as athletic as Andrew Wiggins, Jackson can go into any system without disrupting the offense. (Kawhi Leonard came into the NBA as a similar prospect on both offense and defense.) His versatility on offense, mixed with his ability to guard multiple positions, would make him as a great fit anywhere.

Of course, we're all entitled to our opinions.

Sounds like the same type of people who cited "versatility" when taking overhyping my aforementioned prospects like Winslow amd Gordon, not to mention Ingram, Bender  and even Wiggins (who is a talented scorer who can do little else).

Ive said it once,  im say it again - every single year just about,  there's almost always a massively hyped guy in the top 3 who every mock draft is obsessed about,  who end up being a complete nobody.

People NOW are saying things like Gordom and Winslow are nowhere near the prospects Jackson is, etc....all while ignoring the fact that many mock drafts has both of those guys going to 3 or 4 in their drafts and were gushing about their "versatility".

How many are saying Ingram was BY FAR the best prospect in the draft,  and the second coming off Kevin Durant?  It was obvious from day one that he was never that guy.

Jackson is being overrated so badly it makes my eyes hurt just reading half the garbage people are writing.

I love that quote for example - "as tall as Draymond Green and as athletic as Andrew Wiggins".  Do these geniuses saying this not actually do their research to see that Andrew Wiggins already IS as tall as Draymond Green?! As are half the wings in the NBA.  Draymond Green is a massively undersized PF and has been successful in spite of (not because of)  that height.

Difference is that Green has the length and physical strength / power to play the PF spot and even stretches at center, while Jackson is built like a stick figure and has the same wingspan as Rajon Rondo and Marcus Smart - versus Wiggins who has the wingspan of Lebron (in the 7'0" range).

On top of that Jackson lacks the handles and its too turnover prone with the ball to play SG against NBA defence, his shooting form is totally broken (~55% FT),  he lacks the length and strength to play PF and lacks the frame to likely ever be able to build up enough to do so, he lacks Nba 3Pt range.   

He's basically an athletic wing who can defend on the perimeter at a high level and score off drives and lobs and in transition,  and that's pretty much it.  And despite that raw nature, he's not especially young either (20 in college) by rookie standards.

I mean look - nobody truly KNOWS  what any prospect will grow up to become.   Every year there are guys who are drafted top 3 who end up role players, and guys who are drafted out of the lottery who end up great staters or stars.  So I may well be wrong, and Jackson might come out and Al silence me from day one.   

But I doubt it.   I've seen way too many players of his type (athletic, defensive minded combo-forwards) who have come through the draft hyped like crazy,  and ultimately amounted to nothing.   And most of those guys didn't have Jackson's lack of physical strength, his mediocre wingspan, or his off-court concerns. I dont see any one talent or skill in this kid that screams "future star".  I see a kid who can run and jump and defend,  and who I expect will struggle to do much beyond that when he finds himself facing NBA size and skill.

I have to agree. There are prospects like this every year it seems, tough-nosed defenders that are safe picks if you're looking for a rotation guy but don't have the offensive ability to ever be a star, or a starter on a very good team. Everybody has that hope that a player can turn into Kawhi Leonard but he is looking like a massive anomaly at this point. I think that teams think, well at the very least he won't be a bust and if he develops a 3 pt. shot at least he's a 3 and D guy which has a lot of value now. How often does that happen though?

Yes, we all love gamers and competitive tough guys. In the end you still have to have the ability though.

I watched a lot of Jackson's games last year. About a dozen.  Really focused on him during each game. He is so much better than Winslow and Gordon were in college, both of whom I liked. he won't  lead the league in scoring, of course, but he will do all the things on the court that will help you win. Sounds cliche I know, but I have never seen a college freshman have such a grasp of making the right decision, with or without the ball, as Jackson. I still want to take Fultz for obvious reasons, but I felt the need to weigh in here.

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #177 on: June 16, 2017, 12:05:45 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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So you're just not a fan of players who beat women or do stupid things under the influence of alcohol.  I can understand that.  With such a vehement opposition to such behavior, I assume you also don't care for:
- Robert Parish, who beat his wife over the course of a many years
- Larry Bird, who got into a bar fight during the '85 playoffs


As long as you're consistent, that's cool.  If not...you may want to consider ratcheting down your righteous indignation over Jackson's behavior.

I do not.  I will say, though, that in terms of what happened in '85, since I wasn't around then but love reading about Celtic history, etc., do we actually know what happened, because I thought that those records were sealed and Bird settled out of court or something, but I'm probably wrong.  I also don't believe that Larry was drunk at the time, but, again, I'm probably wrong, as I thought that what went down was the result of his "friend" hitting on someone else's girlfriend, or whatever, right?  Am I doing okay so far, lol? ;D

OK, cool, as long as you're consistent, have fun with the righteous indignation.  Must be tough being a C's fan and having such an intense dislike for Larry Bird.  The way he shut his daughter out must really p--- you off. 

And as far as the bar fight...he was in a bar, so I'm assuming he was drinking, since he readily admitted that he liked to drink and have a good time. And he did have a fight, because he later admitted that it was his fault.  So yeah, we do know what happened, at least enough to know that bad decision making can happen to anyone, and that sometime a lapse of judgement is just a lapse of judgement, and not a sign of pathological problem



Actually, Bird's my favorite player.  Ever.  But that doesn't excuse what happened in 85, even though they weren't going to beat the Lakers that year, anyway, imo, and yes, I do know that he liked to drink and have a good time, and probably still does, lol ;D.

The principal difference, to me, however, is that the bar fight was one such incident during a 13 year career, as far as I know, and while that doesn't make it okay, it was more of a blip on the radar, so to speak, whereas with Jackson has already been involved with the cops three times during one year of college, which, while it might not be a pattern, doesn't look good, to say the least, imo.  I'm sorry for valuing character? ::)
I don't think anyone's buying your holier than thou act.

Jackson is 20 years old and none of us have ever met him. Keep your character judgements to yourself.

What holier than thou act?  These are legitimate concerns, in my view.  Has Ainge not repeatedly stated over the years that he values high character individuals?

Oh yeah, and if you're going to request that I keep such opinions to myself, which you have no right to do, btw, could you at least be bothered to spell judgments correctly? ::)  Thanks ;).
Concerns. Yes.

You don't have nearly enough evidence to condemn his character.

I have no problem with anyone who is very concerned about his character and who wouldn't pick him without a rigorous evaluation process of said character, but the rush to condemn the kid because of his criminal record is unfair to Jackson and strikes me as someone who is trying to make sure they are on the politically correct side before they make sure they are actually correct. Jackson might be an **** misogynist. He might not be. We don't have enough info to make a hard and fast judgement.

And we don't have enough info to dismiss it, either ;). And yeah, that's what I was going for, there, by raising said concerns ::).

He was a 19 year old drunk idiot who kicked a taillight.  Stupid, regretful, but that is all.  People need to get over it.

But that's just the thing - it's not all.

As Roy already pointed out to you, that is all.  Why hate on a 19 year old kid?  I don't get it.

Hey, I understand some of your anger.   Do you not remember being 19 years old?  Do you not remember how some of your friends acted at that age?  The fact is 19 year olds are idiots and do 19 year old idiotic things.  I doesn't mean they are evil or irredeemable.

Please don't attempt to lecture me on adolescent behavior when you know absolutely nothing about my life, and I'm not saying that he's beyond hope, as people can obviously grow and change, but as of right now, I wouldn't pick him.  I'm sorry that I don't buy into your 'boys will be boys' rationale ::).

You ask not to lecture you because I don't know you.  Ok.  But are you are at all aware how frequently you lecture others?  Players, prospects, and other posters who you know absolutely nothing about?

Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #178 on: June 16, 2017, 12:14:55 AM »

Offline knuckleballer

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So you're just not a fan of players who beat women or do stupid things under the influence of alcohol.  I can understand that.  With such a vehement opposition to such behavior, I assume you also don't care for:
- Robert Parish, who beat his wife over the course of a many years
- Larry Bird, who got into a bar fight during the '85 playoffs


As long as you're consistent, that's cool.  If not...you may want to consider ratcheting down your righteous indignation over Jackson's behavior.

I do not.  I will say, though, that in terms of what happened in '85, since I wasn't around then but love reading about Celtic history, etc., do we actually know what happened, because I thought that those records were sealed and Bird settled out of court or something, but I'm probably wrong.  I also don't believe that Larry was drunk at the time, but, again, I'm probably wrong, as I thought that what went down was the result of his "friend" hitting on someone else's girlfriend, or whatever, right?  Am I doing okay so far, lol? ;D

OK, cool, as long as you're consistent, have fun with the righteous indignation.  Must be tough being a C's fan and having such an intense dislike for Larry Bird.  The way he shut his daughter out must really p--- you off. 

And as far as the bar fight...he was in a bar, so I'm assuming he was drinking, since he readily admitted that he liked to drink and have a good time. And he did have a fight, because he later admitted that it was his fault.  So yeah, we do know what happened, at least enough to know that bad decision making can happen to anyone, and that sometime a lapse of judgement is just a lapse of judgement, and not a sign of pathological problem



Actually, Bird's my favorite player.  Ever.  But that doesn't excuse what happened in 85, even though they weren't going to beat the Lakers that year, anyway, imo, and yes, I do know that he liked to drink and have a good time, and probably still does, lol ;D.

The principal difference, to me, however, is that the bar fight was one such incident during a 13 year career, as far as I know, and while that doesn't make it okay, it was more of a blip on the radar, so to speak, whereas with Jackson has already been involved with the cops three times during one year of college, which, while it might not be a pattern, doesn't look good, to say the least, imo.  I'm sorry for valuing character? ::)
I don't think anyone's buying your holier than thou act.

Jackson is 20 years old and none of us have ever met him. Keep your character judgements to yourself.

What holier than thou act?  These are legitimate concerns, in my view.  Has Ainge not repeatedly stated over the years that he values high character individuals?

Oh yeah, and if you're going to request that I keep such opinions to myself, which you have no right to do, btw, could you at least be bothered to spell judgments correctly? ::)  Thanks ;).
Concerns. Yes.

You don't have nearly enough evidence to condemn his character.

I have no problem with anyone who is very concerned about his character and who wouldn't pick him without a rigorous evaluation process of said character, but the rush to condemn the kid because of his criminal record is unfair to Jackson and strikes me as someone who is trying to make sure they are on the politically correct side before they make sure they are actually correct. Jackson might be an **** misogynist. He might not be. We don't have enough info to make a hard and fast judgement.

And we don't have enough info to dismiss it, either ;). And yeah, that's what I was going for, there, by raising said concerns ::).

He was a 19 year old drunk idiot who kicked a taillight.  Stupid, regretful, but that is all.  People need to get over it.

But that's just the thing - it's not all.

As Roy already pointed out to you, that is all.  Why hate on a 19 year old kid?  I don't get it.

Hey, I understand some of your anger.   Do you not remember being 19 years old?  Do you not remember how some of your friends acted at that age?  The fact is 19 year olds are idiots and do 19 year old idiotic things.  I doesn't mean they are evil or irredeemable.

Please don't attempt to lecture me on adolescent behavior when you know absolutely nothing about my life, and I'm not saying that he's beyond hope, as people can obviously grow and change, but as of right now, I wouldn't pick him.  I'm sorry that I don't buy into your 'boys will be boys' rationale ::).

You ask not to lecture you because I don't know you.  Ok.  But are you are at all aware how frequently you lecture others?  Players, prospects, and other posters who you know absolutely nothing about?  I am far from the only poster who has called you out on this.


Re: Rumor: Josh Jackson has a top-3 promise
« Reply #179 on: June 16, 2017, 12:44:07 AM »

Offline Beat LA

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So you're just not a fan of players who beat women or do stupid things under the influence of alcohol.  I can understand that.  With such a vehement opposition to such behavior, I assume you also don't care for:
- Robert Parish, who beat his wife over the course of a many years
- Larry Bird, who got into a bar fight during the '85 playoffs


As long as you're consistent, that's cool.  If not...you may want to consider ratcheting down your righteous indignation over Jackson's behavior.

I do not.  I will say, though, that in terms of what happened in '85, since I wasn't around then but love reading about Celtic history, etc., do we actually know what happened, because I thought that those records were sealed and Bird settled out of court or something, but I'm probably wrong.  I also don't believe that Larry was drunk at the time, but, again, I'm probably wrong, as I thought that what went down was the result of his "friend" hitting on someone else's girlfriend, or whatever, right?  Am I doing okay so far, lol? ;D

OK, cool, as long as you're consistent, have fun with the righteous indignation.  Must be tough being a C's fan and having such an intense dislike for Larry Bird.  The way he shut his daughter out must really p--- you off. 

And as far as the bar fight...he was in a bar, so I'm assuming he was drinking, since he readily admitted that he liked to drink and have a good time. And he did have a fight, because he later admitted that it was his fault.  So yeah, we do know what happened, at least enough to know that bad decision making can happen to anyone, and that sometime a lapse of judgement is just a lapse of judgement, and not a sign of pathological problem



Actually, Bird's my favorite player.  Ever.  But that doesn't excuse what happened in 85, even though they weren't going to beat the Lakers that year, anyway, imo, and yes, I do know that he liked to drink and have a good time, and probably still does, lol ;D.

The principal difference, to me, however, is that the bar fight was one such incident during a 13 year career, as far as I know, and while that doesn't make it okay, it was more of a blip on the radar, so to speak, whereas with Jackson has already been involved with the cops three times during one year of college, which, while it might not be a pattern, doesn't look good, to say the least, imo.  I'm sorry for valuing character? ::)
I don't think anyone's buying your holier than thou act.

Jackson is 20 years old and none of us have ever met him. Keep your character judgements to yourself.

What holier than thou act?  These are legitimate concerns, in my view.  Has Ainge not repeatedly stated over the years that he values high character individuals?

Oh yeah, and if you're going to request that I keep such opinions to myself, which you have no right to do, btw, could you at least be bothered to spell judgments correctly? ::)  Thanks ;).
Concerns. Yes.

You don't have nearly enough evidence to condemn his character.

I have no problem with anyone who is very concerned about his character and who wouldn't pick him without a rigorous evaluation process of said character, but the rush to condemn the kid because of his criminal record is unfair to Jackson and strikes me as someone who is trying to make sure they are on the politically correct side before they make sure they are actually correct. Jackson might be an **** misogynist. He might not be. We don't have enough info to make a hard and fast judgement.

And we don't have enough info to dismiss it, either ;). And yeah, that's what I was going for, there, by raising said concerns ::).

He was a 19 year old drunk idiot who kicked a taillight.  Stupid, regretful, but that is all.  People need to get over it.

But that's just the thing - it's not all.

As Roy already pointed out to you, that is all.  Why hate on a 19 year old kid?  I don't get it.

Hey, I understand some of your anger.   Do you not remember being 19 years old?  Do you not remember how some of your friends acted at that age?  The fact is 19 year olds are idiots and do 19 year old idiotic things.  I doesn't mean they are evil or irredeemable.

Please don't attempt to lecture me on adolescent behavior when you know absolutely nothing about my life, and I'm not saying that he's beyond hope, as people can obviously grow and change, but as of right now, I wouldn't pick him.  I'm sorry that I don't buy into your 'boys will be boys' rationale ::).

You ask not to lecture you because I don't know you.  Ok.  But are you are at all aware how frequently you lecture others?  Players, prospects, and other posters who you know absolutely nothing about?  I am far from the only poster who has called you out on this.


I asked you not to lecture me on adolescent behavior, not me as a poster, and when do I lecture others?  I'll admit that I have strong views on a number of topics, yes, but I thought that I was just giving my thoughts on whatever the matter was.  If I have come off as lecturing I sincerely apologize, for that was not, and will never be, my intent. 

The only time I get snarky or whatever is when someone like you attempts to criticize me for something and especially from a rather condescending tone, I might add, but can't be bothered to get the facts straight.  In terms of posting style, that's simply not me, unless, of course, I'm responding in kind ;).
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 01:00:49 AM by Beat LA »