Shorter playoffs lowering salary cap

[Jvalin]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

If Gordon Hayward is not coming here because of only being able to receive $29M starting salary, he isn't coming here for $30M.

It's not just 1 million though.

Assuming the cap comes in at $100,000,000 the Jazz can offer Hayward the following contract :

$30,000,000
$32,400,000
$34,992,000
$37,791,360
$40,814,669

SUM : $175,998,029 for 5 years ($135,183,360 for the first 4 years)

Other teams (the C's being one of them) can offer him

$30,000,000
$31,500,000
$33,075,000
$34,728,750

SUM : $129,303,750 for 4 years

The difference is $5,879,610 over 4 years. 

If we have $29,000,000 available in cap space, we can offer Hayward the following contract :

$29,000,000
$30,450,000
$31,972,500
$33,571,125

SUM : $124,993,625 for 4 years

The difference is $10,189,735 over 4 years, not to mention the fact that Utah can offer him a 5th year as well.

[saltlover]

I think people are forgetting about Zeller and his $8 million dollar expiring.  Ship him out for a couple of future 2nd rounders and that takes care of most of these issues.

Mike

No, Zeller is assumed to be released in all of these scenarios.  His salary is already excluded, as is Mickey's.  The only thing we forget is that he hasn't been released yet.

Well, I must be confused on these numbers.  The salary cap next year is projected around $100 million, isn't it? And it looks to me that Boston, with Zeller, has only at most $76 million in salary if we pick up everyone's option next year.  A max salary for someone like Hayward would start around $30 million.

What am I missing?

Mike

I assume the $7 million for Fultz cap hold makes up a good chunk of what you're missing.  Also, cap holds of $815,615 for each missing player up to the 12th can add up quickly.  The scenarios above include 3-4 of them, which can be over $3 million.  Those things look like they don't matter until they do.

[MBunge]

I think people are forgetting about Zeller and his $8 million dollar expiring.  Ship him out for a couple of future 2nd rounders and that takes care of most of these issues.

Mike

No, Zeller is assumed to be released in all of these scenarios.  His salary is already excluded, as is Mickey's.  The only thing we forget is that he hasn't been released yet.

Well, I must be confused on these numbers.  The salary cap next year is projected around $100 million, isn't it? And it looks to me that Boston, with Zeller, has only at most $76 million in salary if we pick up everyone's option next year.  A max salary for someone like Hayward would start around $30 million.

What am I missing?

Mike

I assume the $7 million for Fultz cap hold makes up a good chunk of what you're missing.  Also, cap holds of $815,615 for each missing player up to the 12th can add up quickly.  The scenarios above include 3-4 of them, which can be over $3 million.  Those things look like they don't matter until they do.

Thanks!

Mike

[Roy H.]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

If Gordon Hayward is not coming here because of only being able to receive $29M starting salary, he isn't coming here for $30M.

It's not just 1 million though.

Assuming the cap comes in at $100,000,000 the Jazz can offer Hayward the following contract :

$30,000,000
$32,400,000
$34,992,000
$37,791,360
$40,814,669

SUM : $175,998,029 for 5 years ($135,183,360 for the first 4 years)

Other teams (the C's being one of them) can offer him

$30,000,000
$31,500,000
$33,075,000
$34,728,750

SUM : $129,303,750 for 4 years

The difference is $5,879,610 over 4 years. 

If we have $29,000,000 available in cap space, we can offer Hayward the following contract :

$29,000,000
$30,450,000
$31,972,500
$33,571,125

SUM : $124,993,625 for 4 years

The difference is $10,189,735 over 4 years, not to mention the fact that Utah can offer him a 5th year as well.

One minor correction: annual raises are capped at 8% / 5% of the first year value of the contract, rather than 8% / 5% above the prior year.

In other words, on a $30 million contract, Utah can offer $2.4 million raises each year, and we can offer $1.5 million each year.

[colincb]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

[saltlover]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

EDIT: From CBAFAQ: "Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters (see question number 79), the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player."

[Jvalin]

One minor correction: annual raises are capped at 8% / 5% of the first year value of the contract, rather than 8% / 5% above the prior year.

In other words, on a $30 million contract, Utah can offer $2.4 million raises each year, and we can offer $1.5 million each year.

Thanks, didn't know about that! TP!

The correct numbers are like this

Utah
$30,000,000
$32,400,000
$34,800,000
$37,200,000
$39,600,000

SUM : $174,000,000 for 5 years ($134,400,000 for the first 4 years)

other teams with max cap space available
$30,000,000
$31,500,000
$33,000,000
$34,500,000

SUM : $129,000,000 for 4 years (difference is $5,400,000 over 4 years)

other teams with 29 million available in cap space
$29,000,000
$30,450,000
$31,900,000
$33,350,000

SUM : $124,700,000 for 4 years (difference is $9,700,000 over 4 years)

[Jvalin]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

Huh? Roy H. has said that the way it works is that you add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max. What's correct between the two?

Other thing is, can we lessen the amount of the cap hold by signing Fultz at 116% of the rookie scale? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it works under the new CBA.

edit

Didn't see you had already edited your post regarding the first part of my question.

[saltlover]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

Huh? Roy H. have said that the way it works is that you add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max. What's correct between the two?

Other thing is, can we lessen the amount of the cap hold by signing Fultz at 116% of the rookie scale? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it works under the new CBA.

1) See the edit I put on my post explaining the rule.
2) Once Fultz signs, his cap hold equals his salary.  Until he signs, it equals 120%.  So if he agreed to it (which he won't, but that's moot), the cap hit would be reduced.

The bigger deal with the idea is that he's still $800k short.

[colincb]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

EDIT: From CBAFAQ: "Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters (see question number 79), the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player."

Thank you for the correction. I've been looking for clarification as to why we have differed for a while. Your citation is footnote 5 to question 14 in the CBA FAQ:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

That being said, you could still shave $815K off the rookie deal for the #1 pick and still stay above 100% of rookie scale (provided that that is still permissible under the new CBA).

[Jvalin]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

Huh? Roy H. have said that the way it works is that you add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max. What's correct between the two?

Other thing is, can we lessen the amount of the cap hold by signing Fultz at 116% of the rookie scale? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it works under the new CBA.

1) See the edit I put on my post explaining the rule.
2) Once Fultz signs, his cap hold equals his salary.  Until he signs, it equals 120%.  So if he agreed to it (which he won't, but that's moot), the cap hit would be reduced.

The bigger deal with the idea is that he's still $800k short.

Where have you read about this? I was under the impression that the new CBA has cut out this loop hole. 

[colincb]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

Huh? Roy H. have said that the way it works is that you add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max. What's correct between the two?

Other thing is, can we lessen the amount of the cap hold by signing Fultz at 116% of the rookie scale? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it works under the new CBA.

1) See the edit I put on my post explaining the rule.
2) Once Fultz signs, his cap hold equals his salary.  Until he signs, it equals 120%.  So if he agreed to it (which he won't, but that's moot), the cap hit would be reduced.

The bigger deal with the idea is that he's still $800k short.

Your note 2 seems to be at odds with Q52 of the CBA FAQ:

52. Are draft picks included in team salary? If so, for how much?

Unsigned first round picks are included in team salary immediately upon their selection in the draft. They count as 100% of the scale salary for that pick, unless there is a verbal agreement for a higher salary. An incident occurred in 1997 when Vancouver selected Antonio Daniels with their first pick, and Daniels subsequently revealed in an interview that he and the team had verbally agreed to a contract starting at the maximum allowed salary (120% of the scale amount). Since verbal agreements apply to team salary, the league then changed Daniels' cap figure from the scale amount to 120% of scale.

Once a first round pick signs a contract, his actual salary is included in the team salary, of course.

[saltlover]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

EDIT: From CBAFAQ: "Since teams are required to have at least 13 players on their rosters (see question number 79), the roster charge reserves a minimum amount of cap space to sign 13 players. For example, if a team has 11 players on its roster, the roster charge reserves cap space to sign the team's 13th player, and the remainder can be used to sign the 12th player."

Thank you for the correction. I've been looking for clarification as to why we have differed for a while. Your citation is footnote 5 to question 14 in the CBA FAQ:

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm

That being said, you could still shave $815K off the rookie deal for the #1 pick and still stay above 100% of rookie scale (provided that that is still permissible under the new CBA).

No problem.  I'm actually a little concerned that there's one additional reserve charge I'm not counting, since the new CBA requires 14.5 players on a team's roster, but I'm fairly certain they didn't add one.

And yes, you could squeeze Fultz by another $815,615, but at that point he'll be making less than the #2 pick, and barely more than #3, which isn't the best way to start your relationship with someone you hope to be a franchise cornerstone for the next decade or more.

[saltlover]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

Huh? Roy H. have said that the way it works is that you add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max. What's correct between the two?

Other thing is, can we lessen the amount of the cap hold by signing Fultz at 116% of the rookie scale? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it works under the new CBA.

1) See the edit I put on my post explaining the rule.
2) Once Fultz signs, his cap hold equals his salary.  Until he signs, it equals 120%.  So if he agreed to it (which he won't, but that's moot), the cap hit would be reduced.

The bigger deal with the idea is that he's still $800k short.

Your note 2 seems to be at odds with Q52 of the CBA FAQ:

52. Are draft picks included in team salary? If so, for how much?

Unsigned first round picks are included in team salary immediately upon their selection in the draft. They count as 100% of the scale salary for that pick, unless there is a verbal agreement for a higher salary. An incident occurred in 1997 when Vancouver selected Antonio Daniels with their first pick, and Daniels subsequently revealed in an interview that he and the team had verbally agreed to a contract starting at the maximum allowed salary (120% of the scale amount). Since verbal agreements apply to team salary, the league then changed Daniels' cap figure from the scale amount to 120% of scale.

Once a first round pick signs a contract, his actual salary is included in the team salary, of course.

That is a change made in the new CBA, so CBAFAQ doesn't have it for you yet.  Because virtually all picks signed at 120%, they just made that the new cap hold this time around.

[saltlover]

This could be bad for the Celtics. Everyone should be rooting for the Cavs to make a historic comeback.

Well if it goes down for everyone how much does it hurt? Obviously could hurt for someone like Hayward, but maybe some other players get squeezed out that the Celtics would have interest in.

It makes it harder for us to clear enough money to sign a max free agent, meaning we lose guys that we like or convince Hayward to take less money.

Yeah, pretty much.  The easiest path to creating cap space was to trade Jackson and Bradley for no salary this year, and have Yab stay overseas another year.  If the cap drops another million because of this, down to $100 million, it means the team is over $1 million shy of max room, meaning Rozier would need to be moved as well.  Furthermore, it means that the other best option for max room, Dumping Jackson, keeping Yab overseas, dumping, Rozier, and letting Olynyk walk, is still $1 million short.

Squeeze the rookie under the scenario below to get down to $100MM:

1 Renounce KO
2 Renounce the UFAs
3 Renounce the non-guaranteed
4 Trade Rozier without taking salary back for a pick
5 Trade Jackson without taking salary back to get rid of his $650K guarantee (may need a 2nd attached)
6 Keep Yabu overseas
7 Bring Zizic over.
8 Fultz gets signed at 116+% vs the customary 120% of rookie scale.

Player   2017-2018
 Max FA     30,000,000 (30% of cap)
 Horford.    27,734,405
 Bradley    8,808,989
 Top Pick    6,812,549  (116% of rookie scale)
 Crowder    6,796,117
 Thomas    6,261,395
 Brown        4,956,480
 Smart       4,538,020
 Zizic       1,645,200
 Nader       815,615
 11        815,615
 12        815,615
       100,000,000

This is all doable without too much difficulty, though you do lose an asset in Rozier (and KO if you think he's worth the money). Assumes we can entice a max UFA, which I consider to be less than 50-50 however.

You've got a mistake.  You can't include the Max FA as one of your 12 rostered players.  You need an extra cap hold for the missing player.

Huh? Roy H. have said that the way it works is that you add up all the salaries, cap holds and cap charges after Hayward signs a max. What's correct between the two?

Other thing is, can we lessen the amount of the cap hold by signing Fultz at 116% of the rookie scale? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it works under the new CBA.

1) See the edit I put on my post explaining the rule.
2) Once Fultz signs, his cap hold equals his salary.  Until he signs, it equals 120%.  So if he agreed to it (which he won't, but that's moot), the cap hit would be reduced.

The bigger deal with the idea is that he's still $800k short.

Where have you read about this? I was under the impression that the new CBA has cut out this loop hole.

You've got the loophole backwards.  It used to be that the cap hold equaled the scale amount, and teams would wait to sign the player for 120%, effectively creating extra cap space.  Now the cap hold equals 120% of the scale amount.  But cap holds are (almost) always replaced by the amount of an actual contract, and this includes 1st round picks.  So if you negotiate an amount less than 120% of the scale, you can sign that player for the lower amount and create extra cap space.  In fact, we might start seeing this occur more often, because now teams have an incentive to negotiate an amount under 120%, due to the need for cap space.  Before, the few hundred thousand dollars (at most) difference between the cap hold slot value and the 120% signing value didn't matter to a team's bottom line, so they caved.  Now that there are cap implications, negotiations could occasionally get more difficult -- although I'd be surprised if the first player to experience this was the #1 overall pick.