Author Topic: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET  (Read 3450 times)

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4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« on: June 07, 2017, 05:20:18 PM »

Offline bmac934

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The Celtics are cursed with the luxury of options.  Currently the Celtics can stand pat, go in extreme win now mode, or go for a youth oriented rebuild.  The following does not indicate what I want the C's to do, but thought of an option in the "youth rebuild" spectrum.

BOS Receives = Marquese Chriss Jahlil Okafor Future Pick
BOS Gives Up = Avery Bradley Jae Crowder
DET Receives = Avery Bradley Jae Crowder
DET Gives Up = Stanley Johnson Kentavious CaldwellPope 12th Pick Future Pick
PHX Receives = Stanley Johnson DET 12th Pick & PHI Future Pick
PHX Gives Up = Marquess Chriss
PHI Receives = Kentavious CaldwellPope
PHI Gives Up = Jahlil Okafor Future Pick

PHI gets rid of JO for an established guard.  PHX clears up its frontcourt depth for some picks and a much needed wing (Bender Len).  DET gets their established vets to "win now".

C's Young Core Becomes: Smart Fultz Brown Chriss Okafor w/ Rozier Yabu Zizic off the bench
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 03:31:58 PM by bmac934 »

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 05:28:03 PM »

Offline max215

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Why would we give up two good players for two bad ones?
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Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 05:30:09 PM »

Online tazzmaniac

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I wouldn't expect that proposal to go over very well on here.   KCP is a restricted free agent so he'd have to be done as a sign and trade.

Boston says NO
Detroit says YES

Whether Phoenix or Philly say yes or no is dependent on what future Philly pick you are referring to. 

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 05:34:06 PM »

Offline bmac934

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The trade is primarly built around Marquese Chriss who I am EXTREMELY high on.  If you think MC is "bad" you didnt watch the Suns.  MC is an uber athletic rim protector.  JO is a buy low candidate, who I think would fit well next to MC as MC can stretch the floor for JO while anchoring the paint.

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 05:49:53 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The trade is primarly built around Marquese Chriss who I am EXTREMELY high on.  If you think MC is "bad" you didnt watch the Suns.  MC is an uber athletic rim protector.  JO is a buy low candidate, who I think would fit well next to MC as MC can stretch the floor for JO while anchoring the paint.
1. Im not sure Id call Chriss a rim protector.

2. I didnt watch the Suns... did you?

3. His criticism coming into the league was bbiq and he spent a season on a garbage suns team that had no intentions of winning, so he didnt really have a chance to prove himself there. His 5.4 personal fouls per 36 suggest he didnt answer too many questions on that front.
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Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 06:03:01 PM »

Offline bmac934

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Yes I watched the suns otherwise I wouldnt be proposing this trade lol.  IDK what "bbiq" means.  I think its absolutely ridiculous for you to fault a rookie for A) being unproven on a losing team & B) getting into foul trouble (especially a big man).
Both JO and MC have potential pouring out their ears.  W/ JO: defense is all about hard work.  Anyone can be an average defender/non liability.  Going into his rookie season he lost the weight that he needed to.  Moving forward its about putting in the time studying film (being an intelligent bball player), getting your body in shape, and leaving it all on the court.

& @tazzmaniac: the only trades that go over well on here are blatant rip offs favoring the Celtics lol
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 06:32:16 PM by bmac934 »

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 07:19:54 PM »

Offline Granath

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The trade is primarly built around Marquese Chriss who I am EXTREMELY high on.  If you think MC is "bad" you didnt watch the Suns.  MC is an uber athletic rim protector.  JO is a buy low candidate, who I think would fit well next to MC as MC can stretch the floor for JO while anchoring the paint.

Chriss is NOT a rim protector. I don't know where you ever got that impression. It couldn't be by watching games because that didn't happen.

Coming into the draft Chriss was known as THE boom or bust prospect. Athletic but raw. A guy who offensively could burn up and down the court, jump out of the building, has an awesome first step and hit a midrange jumper that made scouts drool. He was also the guy who defensively was inept, had a BBIQ measured in single digits, was one of the worst rebounders (for a guy of his size) ever drafted in the first round and was a foul machine. He could block shots but that's only a small component in protecting the rim because he was horrible at boxing out.

Not much changed in his first year. Nice outside shot (32% from 3), still athletic and oozing potential. Still doesn't rebound well, still doesn't box out, still pushed around, still fouls at a tremendous rate, etc.

So why are you so high on Chriss? What particular observations have you made that lead you to believe that he's a stud in the making? I'm not saying he's not because he still has a tremendously low floor and high ceiling. And maybe he'd fit great in this system. But I'd like to hear more particulars on him since you've seen him play so often.
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Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2017, 07:21:04 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Thread should be   " Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET BAD TRADE FOR BOSTON"

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2017, 07:33:49 PM »

Offline Granath

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Thread should be   " Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET BAD TRADE FOR BOSTON"

I'm not so sure about that. I think the Cs are getting back equal value here IF you're high on Chriss and/or Okafor. It certainly solves our backcourt jam and provides some big men up front with potential. It's a step back to potentially take two forward. Or none forward, depending on how the new guys develop.

It's also a youth movement deal that would be a bit tough in the locker room. It's a lot to ask a veteran team that just made the ECF to accept a 2nd year player (Brown) and a rookie (Fultz) into the starting lineup. Guys like Horford didn't sign up for a rebuilding project and with Okafor, Rozier, Chriss, Brown, Fultz, Nader, Zizic and Yabu that's exactly what's going on. You'd HAVE to sign Hayward to make this work politically and not destroy the team's morale.

And that's the rub and the reason this deal couldn't happen. For this to work it has to take place on or before draft day. That's June 22nd. But the first day of Free Agency is July 1 (6th to sign but they can verbal on the 1st) and thus the timing doesn't work. Danny can't sell this to the vets without knowing he can backfill the veteran talent and he can't do that before this deal has to go down. It's the kind of consideration that doesn't take place in a video game but sure looms large in the real world.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 08:11:56 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Yes I watched the suns otherwise I wouldnt be proposing this trade lol.  IDK what "bbiq" means.  I think its absolutely ridiculous for you to fault a rookie for A) being unproven on a losing team & B) getting into foul trouble (especially a big man).
Both JO and MC have potential pouring out their ears.  W/ JO: defense is all about hard work.  Anyone can be an average defender/non liability.  Going into his rookie season he lost the weight that he needed to.  Moving forward its about putting in the time studying film (being an intelligent bball player), getting your body in shape, and leaving it all on the court.

& @tazzmaniac: the only trades that go over well on here are blatant rip offs favoring the Celtics lol
bbiq is basketball IQ.

Chriss was criticized for having no real clue how to play basketball. Thats why I didnt want him a year ago, and its why I dont want him now.

Im not criticizing Chriss for being on a bad team, nor am I ruling out the possibility hes improved the mental half of his game. I am just not changing my evaluation of him from a year ago.

Is that not fair?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 08:19:30 PM by Ilikesports17 »
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 11:14:22 AM »

Offline bmac934

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Maybe rim protector wasnt the right word, moreso a defensive anchor.  A lot of my expectations surrounding him are assuming he is going to get better following his rookie year, and because of his athleticism.  Yes MC has a smooth jumpshot that stretches out to the three point line.  With a combination of his jumpshot and athleticism/speed, taking that first step and putting the ball on the ground becomes that much easier & finishing when you can jump through the ceiling becomes that much easier.  It also does not need to be said that in transition hes a clear target.  Yes MC blocks shot, which at first sight you might easily contribute to his bunnies, but watching him come off the helpside I think he has amazing timing.  He sometimes gets caught watching the rim & has the tendency to make stupid plays, but around the rim I feel like he has solid instincts.  His athleticism off the helpside is to me what makes him a "defensive anchor", high upside d, special, etc.  He has the foot speed to switch off his man and get back, there are plays it looks like hes in two places at once.  Even when he makes a stupid play, or bites on a fake, his ability to recover and get back into position or contest the shot after the fake to me is special.  With his speed he also has the ability to switch onto wings.  Also a couple of the negatives that you stated, I also took into consideration as positives.  Like I said, I almost expect rookies to come in needing to learn how to play the game (he started playing BBall his freshman year of high school) and needing to learn how to stay out of foul trouble.  But you mentioned that MC cant box out and gets pushed around.  His ability to box out is directly influenced by getting pushed around, and the 19 year old kid is expected to get stronger as he gets older.  Even currently though his DFG% was 54%, which certainly is not a Gobert, but Myles Turner was at 51% his rookie year & 49% this year (going to improve).  I never meant to insinuate that Chriss was a Gobert Jordan Whiteside rim protector, not even close.  His low bball iq combined with his athletic abilities, to me is pure defensive upside.  Dont get me wrong, I said im high on MC regardless, but part of this deal was also his fit with JO, combining a pure scorer with a (potentially) special defensive presence.  I also am not set on calling a 19 y/o playing amongst men a poor rebounder (yes I'm aware MC was still poor in college BUT was a presence on the O Boards), MC rebounds at a similar rate to Chris Bosh their rookie years.  For a 19 y/o 2 things that I would bet my savings on are that as they are exposed to facilities and technology and a supporting staff, he will become smarter and grow into his body.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 11:21:14 AM by bmac934 »

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 11:37:16 AM »

Offline ThaPreacher

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The Celtics are cursed with the luxury of options.  Currently the Celtics can stand pat, go in extreme win now mode, or go for a youth oriented rebuild.  The following does not indicate what I want the C's to do, but thought of an option in the "youth rebuild" spectrum.

BOS Receives = Marquese Chriss Jahlil Okafor
BOS Gives Up = Avery Bradley Jae Crowder
DET Receives = Avery Bradley Jae Crowder Future Pick
DET Gives Up = Stanley Johnson Kentavious CaldwellPope 12th Pick Future Pick
PHX Receives = Stanley Johnson DET 12th Pick & PHI Future Pick
PHX Gives Up = Marquess Chriss
PHI Receives = Kentavious CaldwellPope
PHI Gives Up = Jahlil Okafor Future Pick

PHI gets rid of JO for an established guard.  PHX clears up its frontcourt depth for some picks and a much needed wing (Bender Len).  DET gets their established vets to "win now".

C's Young Core Becomes: Smart Fultz Brown Chriss Okafor w/ Rozier Yabu Zizic off the bench


Oh Lord, someone turn off this boy's blender. The world has turned all pear shaped!  ;D
"Just do what you do best."  -Red Auerbach-

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 11:39:47 AM »

Offline Granath

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Maybe rim protector wasnt the right word, moreso a defensive anchor.  A lot of my expectations surrounding him are assuming he is going to get better following his rookie year, and because of his athleticism.  Yes MC has a smooth jumpshot that stretches out to the three point line.  With a combination of his jumpshot and athleticism/speed, taking that first step and putting the ball on the ground becomes that much easier & finishing when you can jump through the ceiling becomes that much easier.  It also does not need to be said that in transition hes a clear target.  Yes MC blocks shot, which at first sight you might easily contribute to his bunnies, but watching him come off the helpside I think he has amazing timing.  He sometimes gets caught watching the rim & has the tendency to make stupid plays, but around the rim I feel like he has solid instincts.  His athleticism off the helpside is to me what makes him a "defensive anchor", high upside d, special, etc.  He has the foot speed to switch off his man and get back, there are plays it looks like hes in two places at once.  Even when he makes a stupid play, or bites on a fake, his ability to recover and get back into position or contest the shot after the fake to me is special.  With his speed he also has the ability to switch onto wings.  Also a couple of the negatives that you stated, I also took into consideration as positives.  Like I said, I almost expect rookies to come in needing to learn how to play the game (he started playing BBall his freshman year of high school) and needing to learn how to stay out of foul trouble.  But you mentioned that MC cant box out and gets pushed around.  His ability to box out is directly influenced by getting pushed around, and the 19 year old kid is expected to get stronger as he gets older.  Even currently though his DFG% was 54%, which certainly is not a Gobert, but Myles Turner was at 51% his rookie year & 49% this year (going to improve).  I never meant to insinuate that Chriss was a Gobert Jordan Whiteside rim protector, not even close.  His low bball iq combined with his athletic abilities, to me is pure defensive upside.  Dont get me wrong, I said im high on MC regardless, but part of this deal was also his fit with JO, combining a pure scorer with a (potentially) special defensive presence.  I also am not set on calling a 19 y/o playing amongst men a poor rebounder (yes I'm aware MC was still poor in college BUT was a presence on the O Boards), MC rebounds at a similar rate to Chris Bosh their rookie years.  For a 19 y/o 2 things that I would bet my savings on are that as they are exposed to facilities and technology and a supporting staff, he will become smarter and grow into his body.

Fair enough. You're enamored with his upside.

Kendrick Brown had a lot of upside but he never got past having a rock bottom bbIQ. It doesn't always go up. A lot of truly athletic guys fail in the NBA because they simply don't "get the game".  Whether Chriss can remains to be seen. He remains what he was coming out of college - a low floor, high ceiling player. Could boom. Could bust.

And remember I don't think it's a terrible deal. I think it's entirely impossible because of the locker room ramifications but it's at least interesting and shows some direction. I'm not dismissing it out of hand and I'm not criticizing you for making it.

But when wer'e talking about Chriss' rebounding...come on, man. Chriss is currently terrible rebounder. While you may not be "set" on calling him that, that's what he is. He was literally one of the worst rebounding big men to ever be selected that high in the NBA draft. And let's use your comparison to Bosh, who was a poor rebounder himself. Bosh TRB% was 12.8 in his rookie year and he pulled down 12.3 boards per 100. Those are bad numbers. Chriss is far worse. 10.8% and 9.6 per 100. Those are dreadful numbers. He literally rebounds like Avery Bradley. In short, a crappy rebounder like rookie Chris Bosh looks like Moses Malone compared to Chriss.
Jaylen Brown will be an All Star in the next 5 years.

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2017, 12:07:27 PM »

Offline bmac934

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Chriss is currently a terrible rebounder yes.  When I made that statement, I meant I'm not prepared to label him as a terrible rebounder for his career.  Hes efficient on the offensive glass (from what I've seen at least, yes I watched the Suns but not in excess)(& part of why I believe he has solid instincts in the paint) which leads me to believe he can improve in that regard.  Strength is going to make his life easier in the paint. 6-10 with a 7 foot wingspan ( wingspan is just average, I know) and the ability to jump through the roof also makes me not want to close the door. Upside Upside Upside.

I also may be wrong in this thought process, but I purposely used a skinny PF as comparison for MC.  Yes Bosh was statistically a weak rebounder but in TOR he still pulled down 9-10 a game.  I'm curious what the average rebound rate for power forwards is.  I'm going to use Jahlil Okafor Nerlens Noel and Joel Embiid as an example here.  JO is a poor rebounder yes, but do you not think playing next to a Nerlens Noel and Joel Embiid limited his rebounding.  PHX was 6th in the league in rebounding, Chandler Len Bender (3 7' footers) could have influenced that his rookie year.  This isnt to insinuate that Chriss is an under utilized diamond in the rough rebounding, just something to think about.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 12:15:42 PM by bmac934 »

Re: 4 Team - BOS PHX PHI DET
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2017, 12:22:23 PM »

Offline Erik

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I think the reason you're having a hard time selling this is how low you're valuing Jae Crowder's contract. It's one of the best assets in the league. We're talking about a good starter on a Eastern Conference finals team that has 3 prime years left on his contract valued at 7.3 mil/yr. And he's only getting better.

I believe that if the Pacers get no verbal agreement from Paul George by the trade deadline next season, that a George for Crowder + expiring contracts (Zeller) straight up deal is a reality. I fully expect that both teams will pull the trigger. The Pacers get one of the best contracts in the NBA (easily worth a 1st round draft pick), and the Celtics get to roll the dice on the resign rights on George. I believe that if George has to take a paycut to go babysit a bunch of toddlers in LA or go for titles in Boston for more money, he'll pick Boston.