Report: Detroit willing to part with #12 for a 'win now veteran'

[Chief]

If we draft Fultz and Giles has a good workout/ is still on the board,  I'd be willing to think about it.

[Moranis]

Here are the last 20 #12 picks:

Taurean Prince
Trey Lyles
Dario Saric
Steven Adams
Jeremy Lamb
Alec Burks
Xavier Henry
Gerald Henderson
Jason Thompson
Thaddeus Young
Hilton Armstrong
Yaroslav Korolev
Robert Swift
Nick Collison
Melvin Ely
Vladimir Radmanovic
Etan Thomas
Aleksandar Radojevic
Michael Doleac
Austin Croshere

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with this move, again?

Last 10 years : Saric, Adams, Burks, Henderson, Thud Young were all OK picks (to say the least). We are talking 5 out of 10 picks. Not to mention, the jury's still out on Lyles, Taurean Prince. Heck, I really liked Lamb at the time as well.

Not to mention, you can't just look at pick 12 and say see, you have to reasonably look at picks 12-15 because those are all reasonable selections for pick 12.  That gives you a much better look at the type of player that is reasonably available at 12.   I mean take 2011, 12 - Alec Burks, 13 - Markieff Morris, 14 - Marcus Morris, 15 - Kawhi Leonard, 16 - Nikola Vucevic, 17 - Iman Shumpert (I went to 17 just because it was so deep that year).  Obviously that year is a bit extreme, but you can't just look at pick 12 and say see it sucks, when picking at 12 gives you the ability to draft any player after that.  Clearly though you can't just take 2nd rounders because that isn't reasonable, but dropping back a few spots certainly is.

I'm not saying every player taken at #12 is worthless. But how many of those players would improve our current roster in any meaningful way? Especially when we are trading away a quality starter?

And yes, you can also draft any player taken after #12. You picked a very high-quality year. Others look worse. In most years I see roughly 1 out of 5 guys that are starter-level or better. Getting someone better than Crowder or Bradley is pretty rare. Getting an All-Star is rarer: from 05-15, there were 60 players taken in the #12-17 range and I count 4 All-Stars (Hibbert, Jrue Holiday, Leonard and Giannis). Though I'm not even sure I'd take Hibbert or Holiday over Bradley at this point.

And then for each of those guys there are countless in the Royce White, Oleksey Pecherov, Kendall Marshall, etc. bin.

I mean, the Celts have four guys taken in that range: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, and...James Young.

Not sure I see why we'd want to take one of our starters and replace him with someone in the same quality range as the current guys who can't get off our bench.

Because Boston has both a roster and salary problem and decisions need to be made.  The simple reality is Boston just can't keep everyone.  So you start thinking about who you want to and CAN reasonably keep long term and then it should look to move the others.  A salary dump type trade makes a lot of sense.  I mean last summer Atlanta traded Jeff Teague for the 12th pick in the draft.  Jeff Teague was an all star level PG entering the last year of his contract.  Atlanta had his back-up in waiting and wasn't going to pay Teague this summer, so they dumped him.  That would be the same type of thing Boston would do with Bradley or Crowder. 

[action781]

Would NYK trade Carmelo for #12 + Tobias Harris?  Would Carmelo waive his NTC for that?  Detroit would be better but still not great... Reggie Jackson, KCP, Carmelo, Marcus Morris, Drummond, but I don't see any 'win-now veterans' that can make this team any better than Carmelo can.  Detroit might need to send some extra salary out too which could be done by sending one of Baynes or Boban who I think several teams would acquire for free at their salaries.

[Boris Badenov]

Here are the last 20 #12 picks:

Taurean Prince
Trey Lyles
Dario Saric
Steven Adams
Jeremy Lamb
Alec Burks
Xavier Henry
Gerald Henderson
Jason Thompson
Thaddeus Young
Hilton Armstrong
Yaroslav Korolev
Robert Swift
Nick Collison
Melvin Ely
Vladimir Radmanovic
Etan Thomas
Aleksandar Radojevic
Michael Doleac
Austin Croshere

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with this move, again?

Last 10 years : Saric, Adams, Burks, Henderson, Thud Young were all OK picks (to say the least). We are talking 5 out of 10 picks. Not to mention, the jury's still out on Lyles, Taurean Prince. Heck, I really liked Lamb at the time as well.

Not to mention, you can't just look at pick 12 and say see, you have to reasonably look at picks 12-15 because those are all reasonable selections for pick 12.  That gives you a much better look at the type of player that is reasonably available at 12.   I mean take 2011, 12 - Alec Burks, 13 - Markieff Morris, 14 - Marcus Morris, 15 - Kawhi Leonard, 16 - Nikola Vucevic, 17 - Iman Shumpert (I went to 17 just because it was so deep that year).  Obviously that year is a bit extreme, but you can't just look at pick 12 and say see it sucks, when picking at 12 gives you the ability to draft any player after that.  Clearly though you can't just take 2nd rounders because that isn't reasonable, but dropping back a few spots certainly is.

I'm not saying every player taken at #12 is worthless. But how many of those players would improve our current roster in any meaningful way? Especially when we are trading away a quality starter?

And yes, you can also draft any player taken after #12. You picked a very high-quality year. Others look worse. In most years I see roughly 1 out of 5 guys that are starter-level or better. Getting someone better than Crowder or Bradley is pretty rare. Getting an All-Star is rarer: from 05-15, there were 60 players taken in the #12-17 range and I count 4 All-Stars (Hibbert, Jrue Holiday, Leonard and Giannis). Though I'm not even sure I'd take Hibbert or Holiday over Bradley at this point.

And then for each of those guys there are countless in the Royce White, Oleksey Pecherov, Kendall Marshall, etc. bin.

I mean, the Celts have four guys taken in that range: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, and...James Young.

Not sure I see why we'd want to take one of our starters and replace him with someone in the same quality range as the current guys who can't get off our bench.

Because Boston has both a roster and salary problem and decisions need to be made.  The simple reality is Boston just can't keep everyone.  So you start thinking about who you want to and CAN reasonably keep long term and then it should look to move the others.  A salary dump type trade makes a lot of sense.  I mean last summer Atlanta traded Jeff Teague for the 12th pick in the draft.  Jeff Teague was an all star level PG entering the last year of his contract.  Atlanta had his back-up in waiting and wasn't going to pay Teague this summer, so they dumped him.  That would be the same type of thing Boston would do with Bradley or Crowder.

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but I think the situation is not so urgent that we have to make a move like this now. I understand that trade value declines for players on good contracts, but it also makes sense to wait and see how guys like Fultz and Brown perform. Then decide, with better information about the tradeoffs.

I think your case is stronger with Bradley, for a few reasons, and if we move someone it seems like we'd be selling high on him. But even there, I think trying to move him and a pick for a quality big man would beat acquiring a late lottery pick with uncertain value and a payoff that might not even come for a few years. If I remember right from some of your other posts, you are also an advocate of packaging multiple assets for better ones, right? Rather than having more picks?

[Moranis]

Here are the last 20 #12 picks:

Taurean Prince
Trey Lyles
Dario Saric
Steven Adams
Jeremy Lamb
Alec Burks
Xavier Henry
Gerald Henderson
Jason Thompson
Thaddeus Young
Hilton Armstrong
Yaroslav Korolev
Robert Swift
Nick Collison
Melvin Ely
Vladimir Radmanovic
Etan Thomas
Aleksandar Radojevic
Michael Doleac
Austin Croshere

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with this move, again?

Last 10 years : Saric, Adams, Burks, Henderson, Thud Young were all OK picks (to say the least). We are talking 5 out of 10 picks. Not to mention, the jury's still out on Lyles, Taurean Prince. Heck, I really liked Lamb at the time as well.

Not to mention, you can't just look at pick 12 and say see, you have to reasonably look at picks 12-15 because those are all reasonable selections for pick 12.  That gives you a much better look at the type of player that is reasonably available at 12.   I mean take 2011, 12 - Alec Burks, 13 - Markieff Morris, 14 - Marcus Morris, 15 - Kawhi Leonard, 16 - Nikola Vucevic, 17 - Iman Shumpert (I went to 17 just because it was so deep that year).  Obviously that year is a bit extreme, but you can't just look at pick 12 and say see it sucks, when picking at 12 gives you the ability to draft any player after that.  Clearly though you can't just take 2nd rounders because that isn't reasonable, but dropping back a few spots certainly is.

I'm not saying every player taken at #12 is worthless. But how many of those players would improve our current roster in any meaningful way? Especially when we are trading away a quality starter?

And yes, you can also draft any player taken after #12. You picked a very high-quality year. Others look worse. In most years I see roughly 1 out of 5 guys that are starter-level or better. Getting someone better than Crowder or Bradley is pretty rare. Getting an All-Star is rarer: from 05-15, there were 60 players taken in the #12-17 range and I count 4 All-Stars (Hibbert, Jrue Holiday, Leonard and Giannis). Though I'm not even sure I'd take Hibbert or Holiday over Bradley at this point.

And then for each of those guys there are countless in the Royce White, Oleksey Pecherov, Kendall Marshall, etc. bin.

I mean, the Celts have four guys taken in that range: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, and...James Young.

Not sure I see why we'd want to take one of our starters and replace him with someone in the same quality range as the current guys who can't get off our bench.

Because Boston has both a roster and salary problem and decisions need to be made.  The simple reality is Boston just can't keep everyone.  So you start thinking about who you want to and CAN reasonably keep long term and then it should look to move the others.  A salary dump type trade makes a lot of sense.  I mean last summer Atlanta traded Jeff Teague for the 12th pick in the draft.  Jeff Teague was an all star level PG entering the last year of his contract.  Atlanta had his back-up in waiting and wasn't going to pay Teague this summer, so they dumped him.  That would be the same type of thing Boston would do with Bradley or Crowder.

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but I think the situation is not so urgent that we have to make a move like this now. I understand that trade value declines for players on good contracts, but it also makes sense to wait and see how guys like Fultz and Brown perform. Then decide, with better information about the tradeoffs.

I think your case is stronger with Bradley, for a few reasons, and if we move someone it seems like we'd be selling high on him. But even there, I think trying to move him and a pick for a quality big man would beat acquiring a late lottery pick with uncertain value and a payoff that might not even come for a few years. If I remember right from some of your other posts, you are also an advocate of packaging multiple assets for better ones, right? Rather than having more picks?

Bradley and Thomas are unrestricted free agents next summer, if Boston isn't going to keep them then this summer is the time to move them.

[byennie]

Bradley for the pick all day if you can get it. We can't afford to pay him next summer, and we're talking about adding Fultz AND an upgrade in Hayward, plus we could save enough money to cleanly keep Rozier, Zizic, Yabusele on the roster, and can add a young big man on a cheap deal.

If we really like someone around 8-10 range we'd have a chance to move up for Isaac, Markkanen, etc or anyone who's sliding.

Maybe it works out like...

Bradley, #37 for #12 (DET)
#12, future pick for #10 (SAC) ==> Markkanen

IT/ Hayward/ Brown/ Crowder/ Horford
Fultz/ Smart/ Rozier/ Yabusele / Zizic / Markkanen/ FA

[Real World]

If danny has a wink wink agreement with Hayward how about Crowder, Jackson, a few seconds for 12?

I'd even throw in next years first for that too. Helps with some cap space

Why would the Celtics do this?  Jae Crowder is better, with almost certainty, than any player that will be drafted #12.   Not only is Jae likely to be a better player, but he's already developed, with peak years still to come, and on a long term bargain contract.   In a league where Gordan Hayward is set to make $30 million per, or where scrubs like Solomon Hill make $12 million per on 4 year deals, Crowder at $7 million a year is pure gold.   

12th Overall NBA Draft Picks

Year       Player    

2016        Taurean Prince
2015        Dario Saric
2013    Steven Adams    
2012    Jeremy Lamb    
2011    Alec Burks    
2010    Xavier Henry    
2009    Gerald Henderson    
2008   Jason Thompson   
2007   Thaddeus Young   
2006    Hilton Armstrong    
2005   Yaroslav Korolev   
2004   Robert Swift   
2003   Nick Collison   
2002   Melvin Ely   
2001   Vladimir Radmanovic   
2000   Etan Thomas   
1999   Alek Redojevic   
1998   Michael Doleac    
1997   Austin Croshere   
1996   Vitaly Potapenko    
1995   Cherokee Parks    
1994   Khalid Reeves    
1993   George Lynch    
1992   Harold Miner    
1991   Greg Anthony    
1990   Alec Kessler 
1989   Mookie Blaylock   
1988   Harvey Grant   
1987   Tyrone Bogues   
1986   John Williams   
1985   Kenny Green   
1984   Tim McCormick   
1983   Darrell Walker   
1982   John Bagley   
1981   Kelly Tripucka   
1980   Mike Woodson


How many of the above players are/were better than Jae Crowder?  Not many.  How many were pretty much useless roster fodder?  More than most.   I'll keep Crowder and his contract > #12.

[Boris Badenov]

Here are the last 20 #12 picks:

Taurean Prince
Trey Lyles
Dario Saric
Steven Adams
Jeremy Lamb
Alec Burks
Xavier Henry
Gerald Henderson
Jason Thompson
Thaddeus Young
Hilton Armstrong
Yaroslav Korolev
Robert Swift
Nick Collison
Melvin Ely
Vladimir Radmanovic
Etan Thomas
Aleksandar Radojevic
Michael Doleac
Austin Croshere

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with this move, again?

Last 10 years : Saric, Adams, Burks, Henderson, Thud Young were all OK picks (to say the least). We are talking 5 out of 10 picks. Not to mention, the jury's still out on Lyles, Taurean Prince. Heck, I really liked Lamb at the time as well.

Not to mention, you can't just look at pick 12 and say see, you have to reasonably look at picks 12-15 because those are all reasonable selections for pick 12.  That gives you a much better look at the type of player that is reasonably available at 12.   I mean take 2011, 12 - Alec Burks, 13 - Markieff Morris, 14 - Marcus Morris, 15 - Kawhi Leonard, 16 - Nikola Vucevic, 17 - Iman Shumpert (I went to 17 just because it was so deep that year).  Obviously that year is a bit extreme, but you can't just look at pick 12 and say see it sucks, when picking at 12 gives you the ability to draft any player after that.  Clearly though you can't just take 2nd rounders because that isn't reasonable, but dropping back a few spots certainly is.

I'm not saying every player taken at #12 is worthless. But how many of those players would improve our current roster in any meaningful way? Especially when we are trading away a quality starter?

And yes, you can also draft any player taken after #12. You picked a very high-quality year. Others look worse. In most years I see roughly 1 out of 5 guys that are starter-level or better. Getting someone better than Crowder or Bradley is pretty rare. Getting an All-Star is rarer: from 05-15, there were 60 players taken in the #12-17 range and I count 4 All-Stars (Hibbert, Jrue Holiday, Leonard and Giannis). Though I'm not even sure I'd take Hibbert or Holiday over Bradley at this point.

And then for each of those guys there are countless in the Royce White, Oleksey Pecherov, Kendall Marshall, etc. bin.

I mean, the Celts have four guys taken in that range: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, and...James Young.

Not sure I see why we'd want to take one of our starters and replace him with someone in the same quality range as the current guys who can't get off our bench.

Because Boston has both a roster and salary problem and decisions need to be made.  The simple reality is Boston just can't keep everyone.  So you start thinking about who you want to and CAN reasonably keep long term and then it should look to move the others.  A salary dump type trade makes a lot of sense.  I mean last summer Atlanta traded Jeff Teague for the 12th pick in the draft.  Jeff Teague was an all star level PG entering the last year of his contract.  Atlanta had his back-up in waiting and wasn't going to pay Teague this summer, so they dumped him.  That would be the same type of thing Boston would do with Bradley or Crowder.

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but I think the situation is not so urgent that we have to make a move like this now. I understand that trade value declines for players on good contracts, but it also makes sense to wait and see how guys like Fultz and Brown perform. Then decide, with better information about the tradeoffs.

I think your case is stronger with Bradley, for a few reasons, and if we move someone it seems like we'd be selling high on him. But even there, I think trying to move him and a pick for a quality big man would beat acquiring a late lottery pick with uncertain value and a payoff that might not even come for a few years. If I remember right from some of your other posts, you are also an advocate of packaging multiple assets for better ones, right? Rather than having more picks?

Bradley and Thomas are unrestricted free agents next summer, if Boston isn't going to keep them then this summer is the time to move them.

I said "a move like this now." My argument isn't that trading Bradley would be crazy, it's also that this is the wrong Bradley trade.

[Moranis]

Here are the last 20 #12 picks:

Taurean Prince
Trey Lyles
Dario Saric
Steven Adams
Jeremy Lamb
Alec Burks
Xavier Henry
Gerald Henderson
Jason Thompson
Thaddeus Young
Hilton Armstrong
Yaroslav Korolev
Robert Swift
Nick Collison
Melvin Ely
Vladimir Radmanovic
Etan Thomas
Aleksandar Radojevic
Michael Doleac
Austin Croshere

What exactly are we trying to accomplish with this move, again?

Last 10 years : Saric, Adams, Burks, Henderson, Thud Young were all OK picks (to say the least). We are talking 5 out of 10 picks. Not to mention, the jury's still out on Lyles, Taurean Prince. Heck, I really liked Lamb at the time as well.

Not to mention, you can't just look at pick 12 and say see, you have to reasonably look at picks 12-15 because those are all reasonable selections for pick 12.  That gives you a much better look at the type of player that is reasonably available at 12.   I mean take 2011, 12 - Alec Burks, 13 - Markieff Morris, 14 - Marcus Morris, 15 - Kawhi Leonard, 16 - Nikola Vucevic, 17 - Iman Shumpert (I went to 17 just because it was so deep that year).  Obviously that year is a bit extreme, but you can't just look at pick 12 and say see it sucks, when picking at 12 gives you the ability to draft any player after that.  Clearly though you can't just take 2nd rounders because that isn't reasonable, but dropping back a few spots certainly is.

I'm not saying every player taken at #12 is worthless. But how many of those players would improve our current roster in any meaningful way? Especially when we are trading away a quality starter?

And yes, you can also draft any player taken after #12. You picked a very high-quality year. Others look worse. In most years I see roughly 1 out of 5 guys that are starter-level or better. Getting someone better than Crowder or Bradley is pretty rare. Getting an All-Star is rarer: from 05-15, there were 60 players taken in the #12-17 range and I count 4 All-Stars (Hibbert, Jrue Holiday, Leonard and Giannis). Though I'm not even sure I'd take Hibbert or Holiday over Bradley at this point.

And then for each of those guys there are countless in the Royce White, Oleksey Pecherov, Kendall Marshall, etc. bin.

I mean, the Celts have four guys taken in that range: Kelly Olynyk, Terry Rozier, Tyler Zeller, and...James Young.

Not sure I see why we'd want to take one of our starters and replace him with someone in the same quality range as the current guys who can't get off our bench.

Because Boston has both a roster and salary problem and decisions need to be made.  The simple reality is Boston just can't keep everyone.  So you start thinking about who you want to and CAN reasonably keep long term and then it should look to move the others.  A salary dump type trade makes a lot of sense.  I mean last summer Atlanta traded Jeff Teague for the 12th pick in the draft.  Jeff Teague was an all star level PG entering the last year of his contract.  Atlanta had his back-up in waiting and wasn't going to pay Teague this summer, so they dumped him.  That would be the same type of thing Boston would do with Bradley or Crowder.

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but I think the situation is not so urgent that we have to make a move like this now. I understand that trade value declines for players on good contracts, but it also makes sense to wait and see how guys like Fultz and Brown perform. Then decide, with better information about the tradeoffs.

I think your case is stronger with Bradley, for a few reasons, and if we move someone it seems like we'd be selling high on him. But even there, I think trying to move him and a pick for a quality big man would beat acquiring a late lottery pick with uncertain value and a payoff that might not even come for a few years. If I remember right from some of your other posts, you are also an advocate of packaging multiple assets for better ones, right? Rather than having more picks?

Bradley and Thomas are unrestricted free agents next summer, if Boston isn't going to keep them then this summer is the time to move them.

I said "a move like this now." My argument isn't that trading Bradley would be crazy, it's also that this is the wrong Bradley trade.

ah fair enough, though the only draft picks Bradley can be traded for that could actually play on the team this year are this draft.  If you want to trade him for future draft picks or other players, then sure you don't have to trade him until after the draft, but I would think this would be a pretty good trade considering all things, if you determined Bradley was the odd man out. 

I actually would prefer to keep Bradley long term and move Thomas.  I think Bradley is a much better fit with Fultz, will be able to be signed for less dollars, and I have less concerns about his production long term than Thomas. 

[Denis998]

This is what GM Coaches seem to do. They prioritize winning now rather than make a long term plan.

[CelticsElite]

I'm pretty certain Boston has no interest at the 12 pick area. Not much will be left by then.

[KG Living Legend]

 I gotta a win now veteran for you. Triboys Binkie. Jordan Mickey for #12. Ben Wallace Jr.

[KG Living Legend]

This is what GM Coaches seem to do. They prioritize winning now rather than make a long term plan.

 That's why the Patriots crush it. 25 GM's worried about losing there job this year. Bill has nothing to worry about.