Author Topic: Celtics questions without clear answers  (Read 4309 times)

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Celtics questions without clear answers
« on: May 30, 2017, 06:43:03 AM »

Offline slightly biased bias fan

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I do not envy Ainge in the slightest for this offseason, he has done a special job setting up Boston for the present and future but something has to give, in the sense that he has to eventually cash in his chips. I have been looking at our options and it's near impossible to find a clear path.

- Who starts next to Thomas in the backcourt? It can't be Fultz (if we draft him) rookies make rookie mistakes, Brown? Or is it too early?

- What to do with Bradley? People on here seem to want to trade him but he is the perfect partner for Thomas, he's improved ever season, is still only 26, but he will want to be paid next offseason and can we afford him? If not expiring players are 25c on the dollar returns.

- What to do with Smart long term? Smart is a point guard not a two, he needs the ball in his hands and can't play off the ball for jump shots. There is really no market for him (I'm actually a Smart fan)

- What to do with Rozier? Another guard with talent and is a fantastic scoring point guard but if we draft Fultz surely we won't have room for him, what is the return you'd expect?

- Keep or move Crowder? Crowder is solid on a great contract but Ainge wants a max player so space will needed to be made, is there a team willing to pay for Crowder and what is the return? No team really has salary space for a cap dump for just picks.

- Power forward solution? Biggest hole in the team, Olynyk is a defensive liablity so do we resign him? All decent free agents will want to be payed and would they be worth it or do we start Zizic/Yabusele, surely they aren't ready to start in Brad's complex defensive schemes.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 06:55:08 AM by slightly biased bias fan »

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 07:47:14 AM »

Offline iadera

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How can we know that Fultz (1st overall in the strongest draft for years) will not be able to take a place in the starting lineup. I think he'll surprise us from the very begining. Just wait and watch.

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 08:10:53 AM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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How I would respond to some of these questions:

-A lot depends on whether they get Hayward or not.

-Smart being a defensive specialist at this point, I don't think a lot of consideration is put into what his offensive fit is when he goes in. While he probably feels more comfortable with the ball in his hands, I can't say with confidence that is much better than him off ball and being ignored in the corner.

-No matter how the roster turns out, Bradley and Thomas are past the point of coming off the bench. Especially in their contract year, they are not going to willingly give up their starting spots.

-The uncertainty around Thomas' injury could be a factor in both whether they keep him (trade value low) and whether he is free to start at the beginning of the season.

-If they sign Hayward, I don't think Brown has a great shot at starting next year, but he should have regular minutes.

-Crowder should be OK to go back to the bench, though it would be begrudgingly. I don't think they are looking to trade him unless some team insists he be a part of a deal the Celtics have to make. He's signed long-term for cheap which gives him a lot of value. I would put Rozier in the same boat. Would he like to get the regular backup job? Sure, but if it doesn't happen he doesn't exactly have a lot of leverage to complain.

-The Power Forward question: I really have no idea, but Olynyk is definitely not a consideration to start.






Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 08:27:17 AM »

Offline Darío SpanishFan

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These questions can be down to a couple:

Which guard(s) is/are the odd man/men out? Avery? Thomas? Smart? Rozier? Fultz in a draft trade?

Who is starting inside with Horford? Zizic if he's ready? A small ball with Crowder? Olynyl if he's retained? A FA signing?

Terribly entertaining summer is the one which awaits us...

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 09:05:32 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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As for which guard may go, I think it may weigh heavily on who brings back the best return.  (Though IT is not part of that discussion)




Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 09:14:40 AM »

Offline Jvalin

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Thomas-Bradley-Smart are entering the final year of their contracts. Let's face it, we can't keep all 3 of them. We have to decide who is the odd man out and then trade him. Now is the time to do it. No team is gonna give as significant assets at the deadline for a 3-month rental.


Who starts next to Thomas in the backcourt?
If Bradley stays, then he starts. If not, I would start Brown.


What to do with Rozier?
I would keep him, unless we needed the cap space to go after Hayward (in which case I'd trade him for future pick(s)/salary relief)


Keep or move Crowder?
Keep him. Bargain contract for 3 more years. No need to trade him.


Power forward solution?
Assuming Hayward agrees to sign with the C's :

1. I'd renounce Kelly
2. I 'd use Bradley/Smart/IT to trade for a PF on a rookie contract (let's say Saric). If we want to trade for a vet PF on a hefty contract we have to dump both Kelly and Rozier in order to create enough cap space for Hayward.
3. I'd use the room exception to sign a veteran PF (hopefully one of Taj/JaMychal Green/Patterson)
4. If possible (cap-wise), I'd bring in Yabu as well.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 09:38:51 AM by Jvalin »

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 10:59:14 AM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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This is why DA gets paid the big bucks  8)
LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 10:59:43 AM »

Online johnnygreen

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The hip injury to Isaiah complicates matters even further. Was it Danny's intention all along to extend Isaiah after next season, or does the hip injury now change matters?

Assuming the Celtics extend Isaiah next offseason, which player/position will get that third max-salary slot? Given Crowder and Brown's salaries at the SF position, I would make Blake Griffin the number 1 priority this offseason.

I still have questions on Markelle Fultz between his desire to play defense and if he can elevate the players around him (or stated another way, do his teammates trust him). I still don't understand why more people aren't concerned about that Washington record of 9-22. Can anyone think of the last consensus number 1 pick that was on a team with that bad of a record?

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 11:06:09 AM »

Offline footey

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The hip injury to Isaiah complicates matters even further. Was it Danny's intention all along to extend Isaiah after next season, or does the hip injury now change matters?

Assuming the Celtics extend Isaiah next offseason, which player/position will get that third max-salary slot? Given Crowder and Brown's salaries at the SF position, I would make Blake Griffin the number 1 priority this offseason.

I still have questions on Markelle Fultz between his desire to play defense and if he can elevate the players around him (or stated another way, do his teammates trust him). I still don't understand why more people aren't concerned about that Washington record of 9-22. Can anyone think of the last consensus number 1 pick that was on a team with that bad of a record?

What was LSU's record with Simmons?  Didn't make NCAA tourney.  Maybe not as bad, but not good. 

They were 19-14.  And don't forget that Fultz basically sat out the last month of season, when they lost nearly every game.

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2017, 11:18:40 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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- 1. Who starts next to Thomas in the backcourt?
- 2. What to do with Bradley?
- 3. What to do with Smart long term?
- 4. What to do with Rozier?
- 5. Keep or move Crowder?
- 6. Power forward solution?

Here is my best guess for all your questions
1. Smart
2. Bradley will be the piece moved to create the cap space to sign Hayward. In that deal we will bring back a big that plays in our rotation.
3. Sign him long term. Due to his shooting he won't be that expensive and since the team is facing luxury tax concerns in the future, keeping Smart instead of Bradley should save money.
4. Keep him, commit to playing a ton of 3 guard lineups.
5. Keep Crowder and start him at the 4. I don't think Crowder would take being moved to the bench well, so we need to start him next to Hayward or trade him
6. The big man rotation will consist of Horford, Olynyk, player traded for Bradley, Zizic, and Crowder.
DKC:  Rockets
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Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2017, 11:21:27 AM »

Offline loco_91

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With respect to the guards, it depends on:
-Are we getting Hayward?
-How much will it cost to retain each of them?
-How much luxury tax is ownership willing to pay?
-How much can we get in return?

No matter what the answer to these questions, Rozier is probably gone. He's by far our least valuable guard, and his minutes should go to Fultz (or Ball). We should try to trade him for a late 1st.

If we are getting Hayward, it seems clear that either AB or IT has to go. One of AB, IT + Crowder would need to go in order to make the numbers work from a cap standpoint, but it makes no sense to deal Crowder because he's the only one not up for a massive, luxury-tax-incurring new deal. Of the two of them, it makes more sense to deal AB because IT would probably be involved in the pitch to Hayward. Presumably, going after Hayward means that ownership is more willing to pay luxury tax because we'll be contending for a championship, but almost certainly they won't be willing to pay the ludicrously massive bill associated with keeping all 3 guards in addition to Hayward.

If we are not getting Hayward, we still will be motivated to deal either IT/AB/Smart. Dealing IT becomes more attractive if he fetches the biggest return and he would cost the most to retain in '18. Depending on ownership's willingness to pay the tax given that we won't be contending for a banner, the choice might be IT vs Smart+AB. If that's the case, then we should deal IT now for the first reasonable deal that comes along. If ownership is willing to pay a higher amount of tax, then the choice is more pick 2 of 3, and the answer will depend heavily on the trade market for each player.

The least good outcome is that we start the season with all of these guys (and no Hayward) on the roster. At that point we'll be either selling for pennies on the dollar at the trade deadline, or losing at least one of these guys for nothing in FA.

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2017, 11:25:13 AM »

Offline nebist

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- 1. Who starts next to Thomas in the backcourt?
- 2. What to do with Bradley?
- 3. What to do with Smart long term?
- 4. What to do with Rozier?
- 5. Keep or move Crowder?
- 6. Power forward solution?

Here is my best guess for all your questions
1. Smart
2. Bradley will be the piece moved to create the cap space to sign Hayward. In that deal we will bring back a big that plays in our rotation.
3. Sign him long term. Due to his shooting he won't be that expensive and since the team is facing luxury tax concerns in the future, keeping Smart instead of Bradley should save money.
4. Keep him, commit to playing a ton of 3 guard lineups.
5. Keep Crowder and start him at the 4. I don't think Crowder would take being moved to the bench well, so we need to start him next to Hayward or trade him
6. The big man rotation will consist of Horford, Olynyk, player traded for Bradley, Zizic, and Crowder.

I would agree with most of this post except for starting Crowder at the 4 full time.  I could see him playing 10-15 minutes a night there but not starting there.  If we sign Hayward, I think we try and get about 24 minutes per game with one of Hayward or Crowder at the 4 (mostly against bench units and then possibly in the last 5 minutes of the game).  Horford would play his 32 minutes per game, which would leave 40 minutes per game for Zizic and probably one more rotation big (either Olynyk or a big we get in a trade for Bradley, etc.).

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2017, 12:00:14 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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- 1. Who starts next to Thomas in the backcourt?
- 2. What to do with Bradley?
- 3. What to do with Smart long term?
- 4. What to do with Rozier?
- 5. Keep or move Crowder?
- 6. Power forward solution?

Here is my best guess for all your questions
1. Smart
2. Bradley will be the piece moved to create the cap space to sign Hayward. In that deal we will bring back a big that plays in our rotation.
3. Sign him long term. Due to his shooting he won't be that expensive and since the team is facing luxury tax concerns in the future, keeping Smart instead of Bradley should save money.
4. Keep him, commit to playing a ton of 3 guard lineups.
5. Keep Crowder and start him at the 4. I don't think Crowder would take being moved to the bench well, so we need to start him next to Hayward or trade him
6. The big man rotation will consist of Horford, Olynyk, player traded for Bradley, Zizic, and Crowder.

I would agree with most of this post except for starting Crowder at the 4 full time.  I could see him playing 10-15 minutes a night there but not starting there.  If we sign Hayward, I think we try and get about 24 minutes per game with one of Hayward or Crowder at the 4 (mostly against bench units and then possibly in the last 5 minutes of the game).  Horford would play his 32 minutes per game, which would leave 40 minutes per game for Zizic and probably one more rotation big (either Olynyk or a big we get in a trade for Bradley, etc.).
That makes sense. Crowder could play 16 minutes a game at the 4 but still start there, then move to the 3 when he plays with the bench.

Are you worried about him breaking down if he plays more at the 4, or just not being effective?
DKC:  Rockets
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Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2017, 12:25:04 PM »

Online johnnygreen

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The hip injury to Isaiah complicates matters even further. Was it Danny's intention all along to extend Isaiah after next season, or does the hip injury now change matters?

Assuming the Celtics extend Isaiah next offseason, which player/position will get that third max-salary slot? Given Crowder and Brown's salaries at the SF position, I would make Blake Griffin the number 1 priority this offseason.

I still have questions on Markelle Fultz between his desire to play defense and if he can elevate the players around him (or stated another way, do his teammates trust him). I still don't understand why more people aren't concerned about that Washington record of 9-22. Can anyone think of the last consensus number 1 pick that was on a team with that bad of a record?

What was LSU's record with Simmons?  Didn't make NCAA tourney.  Maybe not as bad, but not good. 

They were 19-14.  And don't forget that Fultz basically sat out the last month of season, when they lost nearly every game.

My bad, Washington was 9-16 when Fultz played.

In 2015, there were 5,503 men's NCAA division 1 players. I would assume those numbers were pretty similar to this past season. Of those 5,500 or so players, only 60 will be drafted. Unfortunately for the NBA and its draft, they have to pick 60 players, so who knows how many are actually worthy of being drafted. My point is, Fultz is considered the consensus number 1 pick, which is the elite of the elite. How can a player of that caliber not elevate his team to at least a .500 record? If he couldn't do that against inferior competition, then how can we expect him to do it against the pros? And don't tell me his teammates were not good, because they were most likely as good as 75% of the rest of the NCAA division 1 players. The only difference between Washington and their competition was that Washington supposedly had the best player in the country.

Having said that, I'm 100% certain that the Celtics should draft Fultz, if they keep the #1 pick. The nitpicks that I have can be based on environment, which makes the draft workouts/interviews important if I'm Danny.  However, after Danny does his homework on Fultz, does he still draft him, or trade the pick based on its perceived value?

Re: Celtics questions without clear answers
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2017, 12:30:25 PM »

Offline apc

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We don't have answers
I assume DA has the answers .