Author Topic: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"  (Read 13722 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2017, 03:43:18 PM »

Offline Androslav

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2983
  • Tommy Points: 528
He will be our Tristian Thompson Antedote!
"The joy of the balling under the rims."

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2017, 03:48:14 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3141
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
He will be our Tristian Thompson any decent opposing big man Antedote!
;)
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)


Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2017, 01:07:27 PM »

Offline Big333223

  • NCE
  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7489
  • Tommy Points: 741
1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1981, 1984, 1986, 2008

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2017, 01:15:13 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5227
  • Tommy Points: 1065
Quote
In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.   A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.

....

The analysis, as much work as you put into it (TP), is pretty uninformative.

You correctly note that US college kids have beaten Euro pros in the Olympics - but all those data are from before 1992, right? And we can all agree that the European game has gotten much better since then, particularly in terms of overall depth. So the old data don't tell us anything of real value.

The fact that our pros beat their pros, now, doesn't reveal anything about the quality of college here vs. Euro leagues either, we should be able to agree on that.

It is true that the best Euro teams are competitive with the best NBA teams (55-13 record since 2010). Would college teams have the same records against the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Thunder etc.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_versus_EuroLeague_games#Game_results_Euroleague_Basketball_era_.282003.E2.80.93present.29

The best comparison would be US college teams now vs. Euroleague teams now. We don't have data on that as far as I can tell, but here's an article discussing views of players who've been in both:

http://hoopshype.com/2015/04/03/would-kentucky-beat-an-average-euroleague-team/

Note that is about an average Euro team, and it's being compared to the very best of the NCAA, and most players call it even or give the edge to the Euros.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2017, 01:40:47 PM »

Offline tonydelk

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1845
  • Tommy Points: 467
Goodbye Zeller and Amir...or should I say good riddance-?
It's better to think of him as a replacement for Zeller or Mickey, in terms of the role on the team which is likely "big man at the end of the bench".

Amir's replacement better be starting or first big off the bench.

This.

Lets not expect too much from a 20 year old kid who has never played a game against NBA competition. 

Not saying he won't be any more productive then Zeller - but it's possible.

It's hard not to expect a lot out of a player that get's hyped.  After reading that he would be a top 12 pick in this deep draft makes it hard not to be excited and expect a lot.  Plus the way Ivica Zubac played for the Lakers this year increased that expectation further because Zizic was always deemed the better prospect of the two.  I know my expectations are tempered because all players have to earn their PT on a Brad Stevens team but I don't fault other fans hoping he becomes a starting playing 30 minutes a game and becomes the rim protector and rebounder that the C's are really missing.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2017, 01:43:09 PM »

Offline tonydelk

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1845
  • Tommy Points: 467
Quote
In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.   A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.

....

The analysis, as much work as you put into it (TP), is pretty uninformative.

You correctly note that US college kids have beaten Euro pros in the Olympics - but all those data are from before 1992, right? And we can all agree that the European game has gotten much better since then, particularly in terms of overall depth. So the old data don't tell us anything of real value.

The fact that our pros beat their pros, now, doesn't reveal anything about the quality of college here vs. Euro leagues either, we should be able to agree on that.

It is true that the best Euro teams are competitive with the best NBA teams (55-13 record since 2010). Would college teams have the same records against the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Thunder etc.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_versus_EuroLeague_games#Game_results_Euroleague_Basketball_era_.282003.E2.80.93present.29

The best comparison would be US college teams now vs. Euroleague teams now. We don't have data on that as far as I can tell, but here's an article discussing views of players who've been in both:

http://hoopshype.com/2015/04/03/would-kentucky-beat-an-average-euroleague-team/

Note that is about an average Euro team, and it's being compared to the very best of the NCAA, and most players call it even or give the edge to the Euros.

It would be a lot different if it was USA vs World.  Some of these countries that have teams are as big as Texas and the population is just tiny.  Euro basketball has really come on in the last 5 years and will continue to develop in the next 10.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2017, 02:27:19 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

  • Satch Sanders
  • *********
  • Posts: 9666
  • Tommy Points: 325
Good. I hope the Man Child comes and brings some of his nasty along with him.

I think this nickname is already taken.


"There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'"

"You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."

— C.S. Lewis

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2017, 02:29:25 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
The Fultz - Zizic pick and roll should be fun in Summer League.
As in cinnamon?  ;)
"Pick and roll" is the correct spelling (as oposed to pick and role).
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2017, 03:21:23 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
Quote
In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.  A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   


Um ... a lot more total NBA players have come from US colleges.   Your statement is meaningless unless it addresses the ratio.

Quote
Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.


That is pretty much a useless analysis since it is basically a combination of apples vs bananas comparison or out-dated, obsolete information.

Quote

(... much more obsolete analysis (pre-2011?) deleted ...)

So I for one do not believe that Europe is a better place to get stars than USA colleges.   Roleplayers perhaps and an occasional really good player and all star.

Believe what you want.  But the international game has changed dramatically over the last 15 years and especially the last decade.  Heck, things have really exploded in just the last half-dozen years.   Most of what you based your 'analysis' on is obsolete.

There are certain fundamentals that shape the game that you can't get around.   The age of players in the NCAA is automatically constrained to be between ~17-23 years old, with most of the best players leaving before they reach 21.   LONG before reaching physical maturity.   These are schoolboys who not only are young and undeveloped, but technically are supposed to be balancing their devotion to basketball with their academics.   Yes, we all know that for the few who actually have the potential to go pro for a living, the latter can take a dip in priority.  But the majority of players in the NCAAs have zero chance at an NBA career and have to actually try somewhat to make progress in their studies.

Meanwhile, EuroLeague players are typically in their mid-20s, at physical maturity and more often near the peak of their abilities.   These guys are all paid to play basketball, not to go to class.  And the better teams have veterans who have sometimes played together for years.

You mentioned that a lot of former NCAA american players end up in the international leagues.  This is true.   Those players are then older and more physically mature than when they were playing in the NCAA.   Thus, that whole segment of players is almost certainly at a higher level of competition when they are in the international game than when they were schoolboys.   Yes, most of them are not good enough to play in the NBA.  They were even less good enough for the NBA while they were still in school.

Another flaw in the analysis is the sweeping together of all 'international' players into one comparative pool.   Grouping the Spanish ACB together with the Brazilian NBB is just fundamentally wrong.   It is like comparing the North Carolina Tar Heels to a High School J.V. team. 

Historically, the numbers are still small.  But we are just on the front edge of a wave of more and more top quality players that will start to come out of international basketball.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2017, 03:31:46 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17837
  • Tommy Points: 2661
  • bammokja
The Fultz - Zizic pick and roll should be fun in Summer League.
As in cinnamon?  ;)
"Pick and roll" is the correct spelling (as oposed to pick and role).
or pick and rowel.  ;D
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2017, 03:34:49 PM »

Offline loco_91

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2087
  • Tommy Points: 145
Goodbye Zeller and Amir...or should I say good riddance-?

Why would you say good riddance to Amir. His play declined, sure, but he provided 1.5 years of really solid production for us. He deserved every penny we paid him.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2017, 03:51:47 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
Meanwhile, EuroLeague players are typically in their mid-20s, at physical maturity and more often near the peak of their abilities.   These guys are all paid to play basketball, not to go to class.  And the better teams have veterans who have sometimes played together for years.
First, you're assuming that college basketball players are there to go to class. This is quite optimistic.

Second, playing against inferior competition under more forgiving game rules (and seeing limited action in the process) is not necessarily better. Even when against supposedly physically mature players.

But to each their own. The fact that mid-career players who have performed great in Europe and then came over to be mediocre at best speaks for itself.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 04:41:36 PM by kozlodoev »
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2017, 04:03:51 PM »

Offline colincb

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Tommy Points: 501
Quote
In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.  A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   


Um ... a lot more total NBA players have come from US colleges.   Your statement is meaningless unless it addresses the ratio.

Quote
Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.


That is pretty much a useless analysis since it is basically a combination of apples vs bananas comparison or out-dated, obsolete information.

Quote

(... much more obsolete analysis (pre-2011?) deleted ...)

So I for one do not believe that Europe is a better place to get stars than USA colleges.   Roleplayers perhaps and an occasional really good player and all star.

Believe what you want.  But the international game has changed dramatically over the last 15 years and especially the last decade.  Heck, things have really exploded in just the last half-dozen years.   Most of what you based your 'analysis' on is obsolete.

There are certain fundamentals that shape the game that you can't get around.   The age of players in the NCAA is automatically constrained to be between ~17-23 years old, with most of the best players leaving before they reach 21.   LONG before reaching physical maturity.   These are schoolboys who not only are young and undeveloped, but technically are supposed to be balancing their devotion to basketball with their academics.   Yes, we all know that for the few who actually have the potential to go pro for a living, the latter can take a dip in priority.  But the majority of players in the NCAAs have zero chance at an NBA career and have to actually try somewhat to make progress in their studies.

Meanwhile, EuroLeague players are typically in their mid-20s, at physical maturity and more often near the peak of their abilities.   These guys are all paid to play basketball, not to go to class.  And the better teams have veterans who have sometimes played together for years.

You mentioned that a lot of former NCAA american players end up in the international leagues.  This is true.   Those players are then older and more physically mature than when they were playing in the NCAA.   Thus, that whole segment of players is almost certainly at a higher level of competition when they are in the international game than when they were schoolboys.   Yes, most of them are not good enough to play in the NBA.  They were even less good enough for the NBA while they were still in school.

Another flaw in the analysis is the sweeping together of all 'international' players into one comparative pool.   Grouping the Spanish ACB together with the Brazilian NBB is just fundamentally wrong.   It is like comparing the North Carolina Tar Heels to a High School J.V. team. 

Historically, the numbers are still small.  But we are just on the front edge of a wave of more and more top quality players that will start to come out of international basketball.

TP. I think the one-and-done has affected the quality of college ball to such an extent that I agreed that the best Euro Leagues are now better than our best college conferences. The other byproduct of one-and-done is that the draft, which was always a crapshoot, has become even moreso. I don't doubt that Fultz is the best prospect in the draft, but I had much more confidence in the quality of the players at the top of the draft back in days of yore. There was a much bigger sample size to determine who really were the standouts.

Re: Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2017, 05:18:57 PM »

Offline mmmmm

  • NCE
  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5308
  • Tommy Points: 862
Meanwhile, EuroLeague players are typically in their mid-20s, at physical maturity and more often near the peak of their abilities.   These guys are all paid to play basketball, not to go to class.  And the better teams have veterans who have sometimes played together for years.
First, you're assuming that college basketball players are there to go to class. This is quite optimistic.

Second, playing against inferior competition under more forgiving game rules (and seeing limited action in the process) is not necessarily better. Even when against supposedly physically mature players.

But to each their own. The fact that mid-career players who have performed great in Europe and then came over to be mediocre at best speaks for itself.

I addressed your first point in my comment.  Even if a star player who is only there to play basketball and go on to the pros skips all his classes that isn't the point.  The point is the level of competition that he's playing with includes a wide variety of players, some who skip all their classes and some who take all their studies very seriously and lots somewhere in between.

Your second point begs the question.   Is the level of competition that Luka Doncic faces in the Spanish ACB and EuroLeague really 'inferior competition' to that faced by, say Michael Porter who has been playing at Nathan Hale High School this year?  Or the college schoolboys that Porter will face playing at Missouri next year?
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.