Zizic: "this summer I'm going to the NBA for sure"

[IDreamCeltics]

In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.   A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.

....

The analysis, as much work as you put into it (TP), is pretty uninformative.

You correctly note that US college kids have beaten Euro pros in the Olympics - but all those data are from before 1992, right? And we can all agree that the European game has gotten much better since then, particularly in terms of overall depth. So the old data don't tell us anything of real value.

The fact that our pros beat their pros, now, doesn't reveal anything about the quality of college here vs. Euro leagues either, we should be able to agree on that.

It is true that the best Euro teams are competitive with the best NBA teams (55-13 record since 2010). Would college teams have the same records against the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Thunder etc.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_versus_EuroLeague_games#Game_results_Euroleague_Basketball_era_.282003.E2.80.93present.29

The best comparison would be US college teams now vs. Euroleague teams now. We don't have data on that as far as I can tell, but here's an article discussing views of players who've been in both:

http://hoopshype.com/2015/04/03/would-kentucky-beat-an-average-euroleague-team/

Note that is about an average Euro team, and it's being compared to the very best of the NCAA, and most players call it even or give the edge to the Euros.

False.  The best comparison to the Euroleagues are probably the Chinese leagues because that's where washed up NBA players and College players that aren't good enough to get paid in the States can go and dominate.  Comparing the Euroleague to College is silly because the College game produces over 90% of NBA players while the Euroleagues account for probably under 5%.

Sorry, but Zizic is a short, non shooting, non shot-blocking center... In today's game he's irrelevant.  He'll be good for holding down the bench cheaply.  Only Danny Ainge would pick an undersized, unskilled, European because they have a good "motor."

[Fireworks_Boom!]

How can you not get excited about this kid? I mean look at the highlights film linked below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As11kyuiP9s

Beyond his nasty and willingness to get dirty down low, what strikes me about this kid is his ambidextrous nature. Watching that film, I seriously couldn't tell you if he is righty or lefty.

This kid has a very promising future. Could be a major steal for us.

[CelticsElite]

Zubac did good for the Lakers. No reason zizic can't do good things for us.

[kozlodoev]

Zubac did good for the Lakers. No reason zizic can't do good things for us.

Things are quite different on a team that has nothing at stake but their draft pick.

[billysan]

Zubac did good for the Lakers. No reason zizic can't do good things for us.

Things are quite different on a team that has nothing at stake but their draft pick.

Exactly, I think our games will matter more so developmental minutes will be scarce.

I want the kid to succeed but if he is playing 12 mpg after the break that will be awesome. I'm  thinking 2 years of work and much of that in D league will be more realistic before he contributes  significantly.

[billysan]

Zubac did good for the Lakers. No reason zizic can't do good things for us.

Things are quite different on a team that has nothing at stake but their draft pick.

Exactly, I think our games will matter more so developmental minutes will be scarce.

I want the kid to succeed but if he is playing 12 mpg after the break that will be awesome. I'm  thinking 2 years of work and much of that in D league will be more realistic before he contributes  significantly.

[kozlodoev]

Meanwhile, EuroLeague players are typically in their mid-20s, at physical maturity and more often near the peak of their abilities.   These guys are all paid to play basketball, not to go to class.  And the better teams have veterans who have sometimes played together for years.

First, you're assuming that college basketball players are there to go to class. This is quite optimistic.

Second, playing against inferior competition under more forgiving game rules (and seeing limited action in the process) is not necessarily better. Even when against supposedly physically mature players.

But to each their own. The fact that mid-career players who have performed great in Europe and then came over to be mediocre at best speaks for itself.

I addressed your first point in my comment.  Even if a star player who is only there to play basketball and go on to the pros skips all his classes that isn't the point.  The point is the level of competition that he's playing with includes a wide variety of players, some who skip all their classes and some who take all their studies very seriously and lots somewhere in between.

Your second point begs the question.   Is the level of competition that Luka Doncic faces in the Spanish ACB and EuroLeague really 'inferior competition' to that faced by, say Michael Porter who has been playing at Nathan Hale High School this year?  Or the college schoolboys that Porter will face playing at Missouri next year?

Not everyone in Europe is Luca Doncic. In other words, not everyone is in a position to play 20mpg against top competition in Europe. I don't think the Euro career of someone like Dragan Bender made him more prepared than a top college prospect in the US.

The other thing that slipped through the cracks is that American schoolboys just play a lot more basketball as teenagers, plain and simple. While a typical US prospect spends a ton of time playing organized AAU ball, the typical Euro kid will spend a lot more time in practice, and suit up for fewer games (while likely seeing limited action in the process). Now we can argue whether this is good or bad from a long-term development standpoint, but I don't think Euro style ball prepares you in any form or shape for the NBA grind where you spend time hopping from game to game with little or no pracice time.

[Granath]

In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.   A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.

....

The analysis, as much work as you put into it (TP), is pretty uninformative.

You correctly note that US college kids have beaten Euro pros in the Olympics - but all those data are from before 1992, right? And we can all agree that the European game has gotten much better since then, particularly in terms of overall depth. So the old data don't tell us anything of real value.

The fact that our pros beat their pros, now, doesn't reveal anything about the quality of college here vs. Euro leagues either, we should be able to agree on that.

It is true that the best Euro teams are competitive with the best NBA teams (55-13 record since 2010). Would college teams have the same records against the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Thunder etc.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_versus_EuroLeague_games#Game_results_Euroleague_Basketball_era_.282003.E2.80.93present.29

The best comparison would be US college teams now vs. Euroleague teams now. We don't have data on that as far as I can tell, but here's an article discussing views of players who've been in both:

http://hoopshype.com/2015/04/03/would-kentucky-beat-an-average-euroleague-team/

Note that is about an average Euro team, and it's being compared to the very best of the NCAA, and most players call it even or give the edge to the Euros.

False.  The best comparison to the Euroleagues are probably the Chinese leagues because that's where washed up NBA players and College players that aren't good enough to get paid in the States can go and dominate.  Comparing the Euroleague to College is silly because the College game produces over 90% of NBA players while the Euroleagues account for probably under 5%.

Sorry, but Zizic is a short, non shooting, non shot-blocking center... In today's game he's irrelevant.  He'll be good for holding down the bench cheaply.  Only Danny Ainge would pick an undersized, unskilled, European because they have a good "motor."

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

There were 76 foreign players on 2016-17 NBA opening-day rosters that did not play for U.S. colleges, or 16.9% of the NBA total.

Euroleague > NBA D-League > NCAA and there's not really much dispute about it. Remember our top college guys losing to those Euroleague guys in the Olympics? There's a reason now why we play pros. I can tell you that about 1-2 percent of the guys in that level are capable of ever making it to a Euroleague roster and less than 1 percent, MAYBE at MOST half of one percent, are capable of making a career in the Euroleague.

It is absolutely not uncommon to go to the main city park where guys play basketball in a city and hoop all day and find 2-3 guys that are just casual park ballers that can **** on most Division I players and I am dead serious. Yet those same guys would be dead meat in Euroleague.

As for Zizic - undersized? Short? Are you delusional, drunk or otherwise mentally incapacitated? He's 6'11". 7'3" wingspan. He's 260 pounds. He's not currently a rim protector but he does have a role in today's NBA. He can rebound, post up, bang, guard the lane and pop out for the 15 foot jumper.  He's highly skilled and would go in the top 15 of this years' draft.  Just because you don't know anything about him doesn't mean he's the problem. You are.

[Smartacus]

In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.   A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.

....

The analysis, as much work as you put into it (TP), is pretty uninformative.

You correctly note that US college kids have beaten Euro pros in the Olympics - but all those data are from before 1992, right? And we can all agree that the European game has gotten much better since then, particularly in terms of overall depth. So the old data don't tell us anything of real value.

The fact that our pros beat their pros, now, doesn't reveal anything about the quality of college here vs. Euro leagues either, we should be able to agree on that.

It is true that the best Euro teams are competitive with the best NBA teams (55-13 record since 2010). Would college teams have the same records against the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Thunder etc.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_versus_EuroLeague_games#Game_results_Euroleague_Basketball_era_.282003.E2.80.93present.29

The best comparison would be US college teams now vs. Euroleague teams now. We don't have data on that as far as I can tell, but here's an article discussing views of players who've been in both:

http://hoopshype.com/2015/04/03/would-kentucky-beat-an-average-euroleague-team/

Note that is about an average Euro team, and it's being compared to the very best of the NCAA, and most players call it even or give the edge to the Euros.

False.  The best comparison to the Euroleagues are probably the Chinese leagues because that's where washed up NBA players and College players that aren't good enough to get paid in the States can go and dominate.  Comparing the Euroleague to College is silly because the College game produces over 90% of NBA players while the Euroleagues account for probably under 5%.

Sorry, but Zizic is a short, non shooting, non shot-blocking center... In today's game he's irrelevant.  He'll be good for holding down the bench cheaply.  Only Danny Ainge would pick an undersized, unskilled, European because they have a good "motor."

Respectfully think your way off IDreamCeltics, you can't compare the Euroleague and it's rich history to the Chinese League.

During the last lockout guys like JR Smith and Wilson Chandler were dropping 40+ point triple doubles in China. They wouldn't have been able to do anything like that in the Euroleague. Euroleague teams play capable defense and run complex systems that in no way resemble the glorified exhibition games in the CBA.

Sure the NBA gets almost all of its players from college but we're not talking about 90% of the players in the NBA, we're talking about the giants and the Euroleague has been producing some of the best Centers in the league for years.

When you look at the success of international bigs like Jokic, Nurkic, the Gasols, Nowitski, Porzingis, Adams, Antetokoumpo, Vucevic, Kanter, Valanciunas, Pachulia, Nene, Splitter, etc. How are you going to honestly say with a strait face that Zizic is irrelevant before he steps on the court? Some serious arrogance right there friend.

Also in what world is 6'11, 7'2 wingspan. 9'3 standing reach 249 pounds undersized?
 http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ante-Zizic-68722/

Zizic easily has starter upside, and he's even got the pedigree. He's been living basketball since he was a kid, his brother Andrija Zizic played 18 years in the international scene. Nearly 50% of today's NBA players are related to elite athletes, they know what kind of work ethic it takes to succeed and are connected to the best coaches to help put them in a position to succeed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anticipating multiple All Star appearances but there's isn't much reason to back up your speculation that Ante is going to go be irrelevant either. I know it's been mentioned a lot around here but several scouts this year have reportedly stated that his play would have made him a top 10 pick in a deep 2017 draft. Think they would be giving a cheap option to hold down the bench a mid lotto grade?

[kozlodoev]

I don't think that a person who thinks the Euroleague is comparable to the CBA, or that Zizic is "undersized and unskilled" has a very strong grasp of basketball as it exists outside of the United States.

[Surferdad]

Also in what world is 6'11, 7'2 wingspan. 9'3 standing reach 249 pounds undersized?
 http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ante-Zizic-68722/

Agreed.  Zizic has holes in his game, but size is not one of them.

Perhaps some folks simply assume that if Ainge drafts a big man, he must be undersized. 

[Emmette Bryant]

https://twitter.com/IAmDPick/status/873218714883301377

[OldSchoolDude]

Zubac did good for the Lakers. No reason zizic can't do good things for us.

Things are quite different on a team that has nothing at stake but their draft pick.

Exactly, I think our games will matter more so developmental minutes will be scarce.

I want the kid to succeed but if he is playing 12 mpg after the break that will be awesome. I'm  thinking 2 years of work and much of that in D league will be more realistic before he contributes  significantly.

Given that we will almost certainly be moving on from Amir and Zeller.  Given that at best we're likely to only keep one of JJ or KO.  It seems that our big man roster situation will be Horford, Mickey, Zizic, and maybe KO, as CBS and Anige like him .  Now we may draft a guy but that would be a second round Big an not better than Zizic.  We may make a trade or sign a FA, but but even than it would be Horford and a trade/FA starting and then Probably Zizic at the 5 and KO at the 4. I see 15-20 minutes at the start of the season and staying that way consistently through the season.   Now if we don't get a FA big, then who we trade for might end up allowing Zizic to grow into more minutes as the season progresses.  Now if we let go all 4 of Amier, Zeller, JJ, and KO, to max out Hayward, and can only trade for a journeyman big man, Zizic may end up Starting.  Thon Maker ended up starting 34 of 57 games played and he cam from HS, Zizic has started in the top Euro league.   Bottom line is that Zizic is going to play more than 12 minutes a game and he's not going to the D league.

[mctyson]

Also in what world is 6'11, 7'2 wingspan. 9'3 standing reach 249 pounds undersized?
 http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ante-Zizic-68722/

Agreed.  Zizic has holes in his game, but size is not one of them.

Perhaps some folks simply assume that if Ainge drafts a big man, he must be undersized. 

He will instantly play bigger than any player on this team has in years.

[IDreamCeltics]

In terms of competitors, it's fair to expect more from people playing in Europe than in college.

With all due respect, I simply do not believe this to be a fact.   A lot more NBA greats have come from US colleges.   Also, the amateur record of USA college kids against the pros of Europe in the Olympics speaks otherwise.  Now I do not have the statistics for the just the amatuer team so this has the NBA pros but that is a 20 year old development.

....

The analysis, as much work as you put into it (TP), is pretty uninformative.

You correctly note that US college kids have beaten Euro pros in the Olympics - but all those data are from before 1992, right? And we can all agree that the European game has gotten much better since then, particularly in terms of overall depth. So the old data don't tell us anything of real value.

The fact that our pros beat their pros, now, doesn't reveal anything about the quality of college here vs. Euro leagues either, we should be able to agree on that.

It is true that the best Euro teams are competitive with the best NBA teams (55-13 record since 2010). Would college teams have the same records against the Spurs, Celtics, Lakers, Thunder etc.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_versus_EuroLeague_games#Game_results_Euroleague_Basketball_era_.282003.E2.80.93present.29

The best comparison would be US college teams now vs. Euroleague teams now. We don't have data on that as far as I can tell, but here's an article discussing views of players who've been in both:

http://hoopshype.com/2015/04/03/would-kentucky-beat-an-average-euroleague-team/

Note that is about an average Euro team, and it's being compared to the very best of the NCAA, and most players call it even or give the edge to the Euros.

False.  The best comparison to the Euroleagues are probably the Chinese leagues because that's where washed up NBA players and College players that aren't good enough to get paid in the States can go and dominate.  Comparing the Euroleague to College is silly because the College game produces over 90% of NBA players while the Euroleagues account for probably under 5%.

Sorry, but Zizic is a short, non shooting, non shot-blocking center... In today's game he's irrelevant.  He'll be good for holding down the bench cheaply.  Only Danny Ainge would pick an undersized, unskilled, European because they have a good "motor."

Respectfully think your way off IDreamCeltics, you can't compare the Euroleague and it's rich history to the Chinese League.

During the last lockout guys like JR Smith and Wilson Chandler were dropping 40+ point triple doubles in China. They wouldn't have been able to do anything like that in the Euroleague. Euroleague teams play capable defense and run complex systems that in no way resemble the glorified exhibition games in the CBA.

Sure the NBA gets almost all of its players from college but we're not talking about 90% of the players in the NBA, we're talking about the giants and the Euroleague has been producing some of the best Centers in the league for years.

When you look at the success of international bigs like Jokic, Nurkic, the Gasols, Nowitski, Porzingis, Adams, Antetokoumpo, Vucevic, Kanter, Valanciunas, Pachulia, Nene, Splitter, etc. How are you going to honestly say with a strait face that Zizic is irrelevant before he steps on the court? Some serious arrogance right there friend.

Also in what world is 6'11, 7'2 wingspan. 9'3 standing reach 249 pounds undersized?
 http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ante-Zizic-68722/

Zizic easily has starter upside, and he's even got the pedigree. He's been living basketball since he was a kid, his brother Andrija Zizic played 18 years in the international scene. Nearly 50% of today's NBA players are related to elite athletes, they know what kind of work ethic it takes to succeed and are connected to the best coaches to help put them in a position to succeed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anticipating multiple All Star appearances but there's isn't much reason to back up your speculation that Ante is going to go be irrelevant either. I know it's been mentioned a lot around here but several scouts this year have reportedly stated that his play would have made him a top 10 pick in a deep 2017 draft. Think they would be giving a cheap option to hold down the bench a mid lotto grade?

Right but no ACTUAL NBA scouts have ever said that.  It's just a rumor Kevin Pelton and Kevin O'Connor made up to generate hits.  You'll notice they never name a team the scouts are associated with, or even specify that they're NBA level scouts. 

If this were 2011 when Enes Kanter, Jan Vessely, and Jonas Valanciunas all got drafted in the top 10 I could totally buy that Zizic might be a lottery pick.  The thing is The Jazz, Wizards, and Raptors all DEEPLY regret those picks.  Those guys are all bums who don't matter in the NBA - which is unfortunate since they're the players who Zizic most resembles. 

basically I think people need to wake up and realize that it's 2017 and if you can't hit the 3 as a big, and you can't defend the rim, you're not going in the lottery.

And it's not even like Zizic has been dominant on any level.  He's 20 years old, that's a college Junior, and he averaged 9 points and 6.7 rebounds playing 22 mpg in the Euroleague.  If any college player had played their junior season in Europe and put up those numbers we'd be labeling them a D-league candidate (Best wishes Colton Iverson).

The reality of the situation is that it will be a miracle if this kid is even a bench player for the Celtics at some point in his career.

Sincerest Apologies.