Author Topic: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?  (Read 5803 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2017, 08:20:10 PM »

Offline max215

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8448
  • Tommy Points: 624
Why not both?
Isaiah, you were lightning in a bottle.

DKC Clippers

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2017, 11:23:53 PM »

Offline rochrist

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 206
  • Tommy Points: 17
In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

The problem is that in no way shape or form see Fultz being a transcendent player that carries this team to a championship, nor do i see Brown that way. I see them as good little prospects. Will they ever be able to carry as much of an offensive burden as Thomas? I doubt it.


If i have an A+ scorer, i'm inclined to fill in the pieces not retool. Thomas is so close to Iverson, just a more efficient version. No way i give up on Iverson for Markelle Fultz. Insanity.
I'd rather have a guy like Markelle, who may well end up a 25ppg scorer (as he is projected to be), as well as a dynamic young core in Brown and one of Ayton/Porter/Bamba etc. than Jimmy Butler or Paul George.

IT's hip may also permanently alter his game - we never know, and we can't bank on him coming back to full health and to this production.

IT is not the transcendent player to carry a team to a title, just like Allen Iverson never was.

I'd rather have them BOTH. Fultz's shooting will open up things for IT enormously.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2017, 11:26:34 PM »

Offline rochrist

  • Brad Stevens
  • Posts: 206
  • Tommy Points: 17
Man some of you are way too optimistic. I will say it on record and I'm not going anywhere, Jaylen Brown will never be as good as Paul George. That is a safe bet. George is incredible.

As far as Fultz goes, maybe he'll be a star and maybe he won't. I just don't wait to wait for him. I'm ready to move on from the kids and watch a prime core do there thing. Here's hoping that Danny can make the moves necessary to deal that pick for a prime star.

You should go run the Nets. They appreciate that strategy.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2017, 11:36:42 PM »

Offline liam

  • NCE
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 43394
  • Tommy Points: 3150
Man some of you are way too optimistic. I will say it on record and I'm not going anywhere, Jaylen Brown will never be as good as Paul George. That is a safe bet. George is incredible.

As far as Fultz goes, maybe he'll be a star and maybe he won't. I just don't wait to wait for him. I'm ready to move on from the kids and watch a prime core do there thing. Here's hoping that Danny can make the moves necessary to deal that pick for a prime star.

George is incredible but couldn't get his team one win against The Cavs.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2017, 12:18:43 AM »

Offline Onslaught

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1768
  • Tommy Points: 156
Man some of you are way too optimistic. I will say it on record and I'm not going anywhere, Jaylen Brown will never be as good as Paul George. That is a safe bet. George is incredible.

As far as Fultz goes, maybe he'll be a star and maybe he won't. I just don't wait to wait for him. I'm ready to move on from the kids and watch a prime core do there thing. Here's hoping that Danny can make the moves necessary to deal that pick for a prime star.
What prime star out there will put us over the Warriors now? We're the Celtics, making to the finals is irrelevant.
Peace through Tyranny

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2017, 01:44:02 AM »

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47892
  • Tommy Points: 2906
I have several concerns about building around IT.  First, we're going to have to pay him, and handsomely, to keep him long term.  That will immediately limit what we can bring in around him to a degree. 

Second, he didn't just learn how to score.  He's been able to do that since he came into the league.  He blown up in Boston because we don't have any other top level scorers and are featuring him.  That's great IT but what happens when he has to share the load with others?  We've already seen that in other places, and he was basically shipped out in Phoenix.  He would make more sense as a sixth man but then how can you pay him max money.  Or more to the point, if he's scoring 19 ppg then his defense becomes more difficult to swallow.  Kind of a catch 22.

Third, he's 5'9".  As great of a story he has been, he's always going to work harder than others to succeed.  That will become more and more difficult as he ages. 

I'm not saying it isn't a tough decision because our choice is to let him walk to give him away for something that probably won't approach what he does for the team.

TP. This is one underrated thing that many here don't talk about, and it's certainly a catch-22.

People don't realize how perfect of a situation this team has been for him. We needed him to score this much and control the ball so much due to our lack of other options, which made his offensive contributions outweigh his defensive liabilities.

However, you add more scoring and playmaking to this team in Fultz plus hopefully one of Hayward or Griffin, let alone the development of Brown, then IT's offensive contributions will naturally shrink, bringing the balance with his defensive deficiencies much more even and perhaps to the point that paying him big money proves not to be wise, especially with an offensive juggernaut in Fultz right behind him.

That's why I've been a fan of the "wait and see" method with IT. If Fultz proves ready to start after next year and IT doesn't relent on wanting a full max, then I'm fine with letting him walk. It's not like you're going to get much for him in a trade anyways, so we might as well test the waters and see how the rook does and how good our team is next year before making a decision on him.

Besides, I really, really don't see a IT/Fultz pairing working in the backcourt. Fultz has a TON of defensive potential, but he's not going to develop in that area fast enough to cover for IT's terrible D over the next several years. I think he fits much better with someone like Brown or AB in the backcourt than IT, which is one reason that I'm hesitant to trade AB this summer for space, and I ultimately see Fultz as IT's replacement rather than his backcourt mate.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2017, 01:53:07 AM »

Offline jpotter33

  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 47892
  • Tommy Points: 2906
Quote
in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.

Here's one I already posted:

Notable guards were worse than IT, as measured by Shooting Percentage Against vs. Average Shooting Percentage:

Kyrie Irving
Tony Parker
Eric Bledsoe
D'Angelo Russell
Russell Westbrook
J.J. Redick
Terry Rozier
Victor Oladipo
Rajon Rondo
C.J. McCollum
Damian Lillard
Patrick Beverly
Chris Paul

http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=G*GE*60&PlayerPosition=G

Opponents shoot about 1.1% above their average when guarded by IT. They shoot about 5% better than their norm when guarded by Kyrie.

I take Kyrie 11 times out of 10 defensively over IT. Kyrie's defense was actually very good in their title run last year, even if Cleveland as a whole was pretty bad this year. Just his size alone makes him better than IT, who is bad even beyond his size.

I think people rely too heavily on "noisy" defensive stats that simply cannot single out an individual defender's actual performance or effect on a team's D. There are just too many other contextual factors to filter out.

From the eye test, IT is just bad at defense from everything like getting caught up on screens to defensive miscommunication on rotations/switches. And while this wasn't necessarily true all of the year, toward the end of the year he looked like he wasn't even giving all that much effort on that side of the ball.

The only thing I will give him is that his strength and low center of gravity makes him much more difficult to post-up than people realize. Of course, that doesn't really matter because he's at such a height disadvantage that they just shoot right over him anyways.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2017, 02:29:46 AM »

Offline iadera

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 959
  • Tommy Points: 74
  • CroCeltics
Why not both?


Exactly! At least while Fultz is on $7m contract.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2017, 01:12:06 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

  • Ray Allen
  • ***
  • Posts: 3173
  • Tommy Points: 182
Err, there's nothing that would stop us from having BOTH Thomas and Fultz at the same time.  Ever thought of that?

Besides, I really, really don't see a IT/Fultz pairing working in the backcourt. Fultz has a TON of defensive potential, but he's not going to develop in that area fast enough to cover for IT's terrible D over the next several years. I think he fits much better with someone like Brown or AB in the backcourt than IT, which is one reason that I'm hesitant to trade AB this summer for space, and I ultimately see Fultz as IT's replacement rather than his backcourt mate.

Fultz will be defending the taller SG.  He has nothing to do with guarding IT's man.

Once Fultz hits his prime that would be 4 years from now.  He's not going to be a 30 ppg scorer from the get go.  Though I believe he will be in the 20ppg area starting his 2nd/3rd season.  Besides what is wrong with having 2 guards on the floor who can go for 30+ on any given night?  It would give defenses big headaches.

Say we add Fultz and Hayward and IT scoring dips from 29ppg to the 24-25 ppg range.  That's more than awesome especially since teams will find it very hard just to focus on stopping 1 guy anymore.

People keep thinking it's a zero sum game when the fact is in sports, the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 01:17:49 PM by vjcsmoke »