Author Topic: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?  (Read 5806 times)

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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2017, 01:48:55 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

We are not contending now, as Cleveland just demonstrated rather handily.

Boston won only one game in the series, mostly because Smart had the offensive game of his life and LeBron had perhaps the worst playoff performance of his career.

The Celtics could be a contender 5 years from now with Fultz, Brown, and the BKN '18 pick; they could even contend before that if Danny can sign or trade for another current star or two. But they are most definitely not contenders now.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2017, 01:51:59 PM »

Offline jade88

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Those of you wanting to throw away what we have now and could have, for the likes of Fultz/Brown and BK 18 better be praying 3 times a day. If we go that route and these guys aren't All-NBA players, this will be an epic fail.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2017, 01:53:48 PM »

Offline gouki88

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In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

We are not contending now, as Cleveland just demonstrated rather handily.

Boston won only one game in the series, mostly because Smart had the offensive game of his life and LeBron had perhaps the worst playoff performance of his career.

The Celtics could be a contender 5 years from now with Fultz, Brown, and the BKN '18 pick; they could even contend before that if Danny can sign or trade for another current star or two. But they are most definitely not contenders now.
I probably was more liberal with the word than I meant to be. I more meant contending in terms of being an ECF team and the top seed, not actually threatening the likes of Cleveland or GSW.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2017, 01:54:40 PM »

Offline A Future of Stevens

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I think I am too biased to answer this question properly because I disagree with the OP that Fultz can't be transcendent. In my eyes, he has literally everything you want in a modern PG, and we wouldn't have to hide him on defense. That in itself is a huge deal.

Obviously our team is better when IT is on the court, but his defensive limitations are a real problem. If you replaced IT with Fultz on the defensive side of the ball, we would be better defensively almost immediately due to length alone.

I am also not as high on Butler as the OP and some other posters are, so I don't really view a core of IT/Butler/George being able to truly compete with the best of the best. And to reach that point, IT/Butler/George/X/Horford are the pieces we are rolling forward with. The cap constraints alone after this following year would restrict our ability to put anything of true substance around that core.

This is before we even begin to get into the meat of having Fultz on a rookie scale along with Brown for the foreseeable future. We have control over these players for potentially 8-9 years going forward. Having that kind of stability with our core is worth a lot.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 01:59:58 PM by A Future of Stevens »
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2017, 01:54:52 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Those of you wanting to throw away what we have now and could have, for the likes of Fultz/Brown and BK 18 better be praying 3 times a day. If we go that route and these guys aren't All-NBA players, this will be an epic fail.
I'm not sure how we are "throwing away what we have now" by not throwing away our future.... Your suggested course of action is pretty much impossible to realistically pull off, as well as it would likely not end up in any success for Boston.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2017, 01:58:28 PM »

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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2017, 02:04:37 PM »

Offline apc

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I'm hoping Fultz will reach the next level of stardom.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2017, 02:10:40 PM »

Offline Boston Garden Leprechaun

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LET'S GO CELTICS!

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2017, 02:16:08 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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Those of you wanting to throw away what we have now and could have, for the likes of Fultz/Brown and BK 18 better be praying 3 times a day. If we go that route and these guys aren't All-NBA players, this will be an epic fail.
You're suggesting trying to build around a bunch of guys who aren't all-NBA, except you're paying them way more than we'll pay the young guys, plus we can lock them up for far longer than you can the guys you want to build with. Not sure how you think that's a better plan. Epic fail is throwing all this young talent and potential away for guys who aren't elite.

Very short-sighted. Fultz is a tremendous prospect, and we could add another incredible player next year, when there's 3 great big men and a guard who some think is the best Euro prospect ever.

I thank God you're not running the Celts.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2017, 02:30:14 PM »

Online rocknrollforyoursoul

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In short, yes, you probably are.

We are definitely contending now, but if we move Fultz, Brown AND the Brooklyn '18 pick we would be, in essence, doing exactly what Brooklyn did. Adding good All-Star level talent, yet probably becoming an incredibly top heavy team. Yet our top players would still be worse than Cleveland's and Golden States, let alone if San Antonio are actually able to acquire Chris Paul.

Giving up our entire future and a potential dynasty with three top young guys to build around our amazing, yet fundamentally quite flawed star player would be an incredibly shortsighted move.

We are not contending now, as Cleveland just demonstrated rather handily.

Boston won only one game in the series, mostly because Smart had the offensive game of his life and LeBron had perhaps the worst playoff performance of his career.

The Celtics could be a contender 5 years from now with Fultz, Brown, and the BKN '18 pick; they could even contend before that if Danny can sign or trade for another current star or two. But they are most definitely not contenders now.
I probably was more liberal with the word than I meant to be. I more meant contending in terms of being an ECF team and the top seed, not actually threatening the likes of Cleveland or GSW.

And I would agree with that.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2017, 02:38:31 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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Once we acquired Thomas and i realized how not only good of a pure scorer he is, but his ability to close out games, i was all in on him. I still am. I simply do not see another 30/6 guy with his shooting splits and 4th quarter scoring, coming through the door. That includes Fultz. I just don't want to give up on a player with that much offensive talent, in an era dominated by offensive guards.


Look i get that he is a defensive liability, i really do. My thing is though, we have all of the assets in the world to put a team around him to cover for it as much as we can. Don't tell me you can't win a title with him as your starting PG, i don't believe that. Curry isn't any good on defense, but they cover up. Thomas may be worse, but we can compensate.


I would be around him with size and length. I think Butler is probably the best guy to put beside him in the backcourt (maybe Klay but he's not available), he's got the length and he's an All-star. Paul George or Gordon Hayward are excellent choices at the SF position, with George being the better option. I think i we have the ability to add Butler and either George or Hayward without giving up IT or Horford. That gives us one hell of a scoring/defending starting lineup, with that [dang] hole at the 4 spot still bothering us.


I'll rest on my dream lineup but it's hard to even think about Fultz when we won 53 games and i know we have the assets to add two amazing compliments to Isaiah and take another big leap forward. If we could add Butler and George together, i don't care how good Fultz becomes because we have a [dang] 30/6 guy at our PG spot.


I just think we're at a point were waiting to develop a Fultz is redundant when we can add impact players to Thomas/Horford. We are all set at the 1 and 5 spots, fill in the holes at 2-4 with  2 All-Stars using Fultz, Brown, and BK 18 to do so. I don't even feel silly writing that, we have the assets and cap space to do this. That is just worlds more attractive to me than a youth movement.


I rambled on a little bit, but the true gist of my thread here is that i think Thomas is an exceptional talent. A truly special basketball player. Can you imagine the damage he could do with two other scorers added to this roster, imagine him with 2 more shot creating dribble pentrators? He would wreak even more havoc.

Anyone else feel this strongly about Thomas being the franchise?

If you are building for a Championship then Fultz is the answer. Building for a perennial eastern conference finals team that might catch a break and make the finals then IT is your guy.

This is not me hating on Thomas it is me being realistic. The Celtics talent can not be looked at in a bubble. It must be compared to the competition. Right now there are two major road blocks to a championship Cavs then the Warriors.  In theory the Cs can try to take those two teams head on and make big win now moves like cashing in youth and picks for PG and Butler but is that really enough? IT, AB, Butler, PG and Horford would be a great match up for the Cavs but still would not be clear favorites in the series. If they made it to the finals the warriors would likely take every match up other then center. The Cs could be placing them selves in the Malone Stockon Jazz position of being great enough to compete but not able to win.

The alternative is to hold onto the young assets and compete now while building for the post Lebron era. Lebron is currently 32 years old. Expecting greatness from Lebron at 35 is not unreasonable. After that even James will decline. In 4 years who will be a better player a 23 year old Fultz or a 32 year old Thomas? If Fultz is the prospect the experts say he is I have to go with him at that point. Add to Fultz a 24 year old Brown and 27 year old Smart and the future looks bright. In 4 years if all still together Curry 33, Thompson 31, D Green 31, and Durant 32 will still be dominant but beginning their down ward curve. If DA can build a young contender this would put them in position to battle the Warriors for years and at some point over take them (ala the bad boy pistons with the Lakers).

The best part about the second option is that this championship build can happen with the team still competing to make the ECF every season going forward.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2017, 03:11:14 PM »

Offline Onslaught

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What was the last NBA team to win a championship when their best player couldn’t or wouldn’t play on both ends of the floor? Was it the Knicks with Melo or the Hawks with Dominique? Oh, what’s that? Those teams never did anything?!!!

I'm not saying dump I.T now but I don't like our chances with him as our #1 option. And I don't see anyway to bring in others to put us over the Warriors as of right now. And that's the only thing that matters.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2017, 03:19:31 PM »

Offline droopdog7

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I have several concerns about building around IT.  First, we're going to have to pay him, and handsomely, to keep him long term.  That will immediately limit what we can bring in around him to a degree. 

Second, he didn't just learn how to score.  He's been able to do that since he came into the league.  He blown up in Boston because we don't have any other top level scorers and are featuring him.  That's great IT but what happens when he has to share the load with others?  We've already seen that in other places, and he was basically shipped out in Phoenix.  He would make more sense as a sixth man but then how can you pay him max money.  Or more to the point, if he's scoring 19 ppg then his defense becomes more difficult to swallow.  Kind of a catch 22.

Third, he's 5'9".  As great of a story he has been, he's always going to work harder than others to succeed.  That will become more and more difficult as he ages. 

I'm not saying it isn't a tough decision because our choice is to let him walk to give him away for something that probably won't approach what he does for the team.   

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2017, 03:22:01 PM »

Offline Sketch5

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Keep both of them.

Yep. Build with IT and Horford, build around Fultz and Brown.

It will be a couple years before teams can make dents against the Cavs and Warriors. It's best to have guys around Brown and Fultz that are good pros, and show them the ropes.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2017, 03:28:57 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Ugh.  I kinda hate this either/or mindset on each end of it.

It is a false dichotomy.

We can build around IT4 now while developing towards Fultz in the future.   There is absolutely no reason we cannot do both.

I believe Fultz is going to be an elite star.  But he's not going to be that guy next year and probably not the year after that either.  And even when he is a young star after that, he's going to need lots of help.

Having veterans like Thomas and Horford around him to both support now and to be supported by as he becomes the guy is the way to do this.  To have a long, sustained run of deep playoff runs.

The Spurs were a success because they added Duncan to a team with an already strong roster of veterans.   As they aged off, they turned roster spots over to younger players.  They didn't do a silly full-roster flush with youth.   The have been doing it naturally, over time.  Along the way, some of their youth turned into pretty good stars who shined extra bright because they were playing together and with Duncan.  Eventually, as Duncan finally got too old to be 'the man' they hit gold on their new super-star in Leonard.   Nowhere along the way did they need to reboot with a youthful overhaul.
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