Author Topic: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?  (Read 5848 times)

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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2017, 04:14:36 PM »

Offline rondohondo

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IT isn't likely back before December if he goes under the knife.

Draft Fultz and let him and Smart handle PG while IT slowly works his way back into game shape.

IT won't put up the same numbers next year lowering his price on next contract to around 4yr/100 mil.

Sign Hayward to a max through his prime. Now you have 2 all-stars under contract for the remainder of their prime. Horford is still a borderline all star, just needs a big man next to him.

All this while we develop Jaylen,Fultz and brk 18. When IT is 32,Fultz can take over, if he shows he is ready before then, IT could be dealt.

Can use AB, Rozier and picks to get a big man . Saric?

I would also take a shot at Chris Bosh if he get the OK from his doctors.

IT             smart
Hayward  Fultz
Jaylen.     Jae
Bosh.       Saric
Horford.   Zicic

Then in 18 you have brk (top 5) and Yabu available to join the team. I personally think Yabu is going to be a very good player.

Have a very strong current roster while maintaining flexibility, and hopefully developing a few studs on rookie contracts.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 04:20:22 PM by rondohondo »

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2017, 04:35:03 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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That's a lot to ask when you already have a guy like that. Thomas just covers every base on offense, i haven't been this happy with a Celtic scorer maybe ever. Love me some Pierce but i'm not sure he was even this good.

Scoring is half the game but the other half is defense.   The CAVs series showed me IT was our leader.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2017, 04:54:14 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2017, 04:56:56 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2017, 04:59:32 PM »

Offline Dino Pitino

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2017, 04:59:50 PM »

Offline Atzar

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Why is IT/Fultz an either/or question?

IMO they fit very well together in the same backcourt.  Both can play on or off the ball offensively and Fultz probably profiles better at the 2 than the 1 on defense. 

I think you do everything you can to keep both. 

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2017, 05:02:43 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Why is IT/Fultz an either/or question?

IMO they fit very well together in the same backcourt.  Both can play on or off the ball offensively and Fultz probably profiles better at the 2 than the 1 on defense. 

I think you do everything you can to keep both.

It is actually quite easy to do that.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2017, 05:05:34 PM »

Offline More Banners

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.

Did pretty well on Wall/Beal too.  Best option against Lowry/Derozen. IT couldn't defend there, giving up as much as he got.

Problem we have is going the Smart/Bradley defense first direction would require us to have 2 scoring playmakers at the F spots with Horford at C. We would basically need a Hayward/Melo/Horford to have a chance, and I'm not sure I like that. PG13 plus Melo maybe.

Those defensive guards can be 3 and D guys, but Marcus has no 3.

Anyhoo, defense wins championships, right?  Well let's just go in that direction then. Simple.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 05:13:01 PM by More Banners »

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2017, 05:09:24 PM »

Offline Atzar

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Why is IT/Fultz an either/or question?

IMO they fit very well together in the same backcourt.  Both can play on or off the ball offensively and Fultz probably profiles better at the 2 than the 1 on defense. 

I think you do everything you can to keep both.

It is actually quite easy to do that.

It is.  Which is why I think this thread is trying to create a dilemma that doesn't actually exist. 

We'll have some difficult decisions to make in the coming months.  But IT-or-Fultz isn't one of them IMO.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2017, 05:10:06 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.

No, Cleveland letting up and Smart having an unprecedented offensive night beat Cleveland.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2017, 05:18:05 PM »

Offline jade88

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Man some of you are way too optimistic. I will say it on record and I'm not going anywhere, Jaylen Brown will never be as good as Paul George. That is a safe bet. George is incredible.

As far as Fultz goes, maybe he'll be a star and maybe he won't. I just don't wait to wait for him. I'm ready to move on from the kids and watch a prime core do there thing. Here's hoping that Danny can make the moves necessary to deal that pick for a prime star.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2017, 05:25:45 PM »

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Why is IT/Fultz an either/or question?

IMO they fit very well together in the same backcourt.  Both can play on or off the ball offensively and Fultz probably profiles better at the 2 than the 1 on defense. 

I think you do everything you can to keep both.

It is actually quite easy to do that.

It is.  Which is why I think this thread is trying to create a dilemma that doesn't actually exist. 

We'll have some difficult decisions to make in the coming months.  But IT-or-Fultz isn't one of them IMO.

In the end I'd probably enjoy having all those guards next year and deal with the problem in 2018 when we know better how Fultz/Brown/Smart/Rozier are shaking out in terms of development and chemistry.  Rozier is the real wild card I think. With 2 yrs left on his dirt cheap rookie deal, his value is tremendous. There will be some good offers for our guards for sure, but I definitely want to see the battles next year if they all come back.

Really it's about the minutes crunch more than the money crunch. If this crew of guards would get us a title, Wyc will pay them. But even going the old Coach Hubie Brown route and playing 2 strings 24 minutes each, does Rozier go to the deep bench as 5th guard, and is Brown definitely a SF and not a SG, because he could make the guard rotation even more complex. There just aren't enough minutes.

A conundrum for DA, who seems to need to trade small for big.

Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 05:26:00 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Thomas' defensive rating numbers are all dragged down because Brad deployed him a ton in 3-guard lineups.  In the aggregate, all of our configurations with IT+AB+MS posted a horrible DRtg of 115.2.   Every other 3-guard lineup combinations involving those three and/or TR were all similarly bad or worse.  Basically we were consistently worse than the worst defense in the NBA when we used 3-guard lineups. 

In some of those 3-guard lineups, we had huge offensive output and it was a net positive.  But overall, they were just barely below breaking even with a 115.0 ORtg (which is really good, but not good enough to overcome the poor defense).

Conversely, 2-guard lineups with, say, just IT + Avery or just IT + MS or just IT+TR were typically league-average dense, while still maintaining top-of-the-league level offense.   All of our 2-guard lineups with Isaiah were at least +3 net positive and most were much more than that.

When you cite stats such as DRPM and individual +/- numbers that purport to show that Isaiah is the worst defender in the NBA, keep in mind that those stats are giving a large weight to the horrible 3-guard lineups that we used a lot.  And that begs the question, were those 3-guard lineups bad defensively because of Isaiah?  Or because they were just bad configurations that put guys in bad mismatches?   

For example our most popular 3-guard lineup forced Marcus to defend the 3 and Jae to defend the 4.   That had a really horrible DRtg of 116.2.     If you remove Marcus, slide Jae back to the 3 and insert any of our bigs in the front court and the DRtg drops to 108-110-ish.   That's not because Marcus is a bad defender.  That's because he was put in a bad defensive configuration.

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Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.

No, Marcus Smart having an insanely anomalous shooting night, along with fat shooting by the whole team won it.  That game was not at all won due to "defense".   It was won because Marcus shot a ridiculous 70% on threes in a freaky Ray Allen impression and the team overall shot 45% on threes.

And Lebron scoring 11 points in one of the worst, anomalously bad games of his career also won it for us.

Those are not sustainable things.  Hence, we lost the remaining games.
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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 05:35:10 PM »

Offline Evantime34

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.

No, Cleveland letting up and Smart having an unprecedented offensive night beat Cleveland.
With the floor spacing in the league today it's so hard to defend. The idea to zag by having great defensive guards should have been put to bed as a viable strategy after watching Kyrie dominate two of the best defensive guards in the league (Bradley and Smart).

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Re: Am i the only who would rather build around IT4 than Fultz?
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 08:10:44 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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in an era dominated by offensive guards.

The strategy to take in such an era is to zag and to make sure your own guards are all defensive plusses. Isaiah is the worst defensive guard in the league, on the other hand. Fultz will be a plus.

IT isn't close to the worst defensive guard.

Which old school stat and advanced metric suggest he isn't?

Quote
And, how did "zagging" with our defensive guards work out against Cleveland?

It won the only game Cleveland has lost in the playoffs so far.

Here's one I already posted:

Notable guards were worse than IT, as measured by Shooting Percentage Against vs. Average Shooting Percentage:

Kyrie Irving
Tony Parker
Eric Bledsoe
D'Angelo Russell
Russell Westbrook
J.J. Redick
Terry Rozier
Victor Oladipo
Rajon Rondo
C.J. McCollum
Damian Lillard
Patrick Beverly
Chris Paul

http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=G*GE*60&PlayerPosition=G

Opponents shoot about 1.1% above their average when guarded by IT. They shoot about 5% better than their norm when guarded by Kyrie.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes